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[Music]

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[Applause]

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[Music]

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thank you

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there's nothing to hide at all

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tonight is going to be really special

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this is a somewhere in the skies that

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we're actually calling somewhere in the

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medieval Skies now we won't only be

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talking medieval we're going to be

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talking a bunch of other things with my

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very special guests tonight and that is

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the one and only Micah Hanks how you

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doing buddy brother we're going

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pre-uffology tonight so this is going to

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be fun this is something I'm gonna admit

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man I've never looked into so you you

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are going to be the conductor of this

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train tonight uh for sure but I will

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definitely chime in I know our viewers

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on YouTube and Facebook will as well I

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will try to get to as many questions or

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comments as I can but before we even get

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to that

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um I do want to warn everyone you may at

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7 p.m yeah 7 P.M EST you might hear a

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lot of cheering and clanking of pots and

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shouting um at least here in New York

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City every night at 7 pm uh New Yorkers

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have been sending their cheers and

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thanks in the most you know oh the best

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way they know how and that's the yell

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scream and make a lot of noise for our

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First Responders our Frontline workers

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and we I do live near a hospital so um

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if tonight at 7 pm you hear a lot of

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ruckus outside just know it's for a good

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reason and that I'm sending all my

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thanks and gratitude to everyone out

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there working right now and keeping us

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safe we'll join right in we will we will

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once I hear it yo you will know trust me

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New Yorkers they uh make themselves

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known when they want to um but before we

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get to that as well my man what are you

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drinking I did ask you to bring

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something to the table tonight what you

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got that is true and if you know me you

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know I get a grin again and again here I

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have

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yes

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straight from Saint James gate Dublin if

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I can speak here uh I have my Guinness

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in my goblet that was given to me by my

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archaeological cohort Jason pintrell who

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might be listening at home I don't know

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I know he just called me so if you are

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out there listening Jason that's why I

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missed your call and brother I'll call

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you back later

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my goodness in the glass that he gave me

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and uh yes and I I believe you have a

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ceremonial beverage of something yeah so

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I'm going um I'm going local tonight

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I've got original sin Black Widow cider

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it's delicious man it's got a black

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raspberry taste to it um very light very

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refreshing so

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um hey I wish I could be having a

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Guinness right now that Silky Smooth

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Dark

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darker than only thing better than

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having a Guinness would be if we could

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have a Guinness together Ryan and um you

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know I think so fondly of uh when you

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and I and uh and our friends up in uh

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Canada of course Paul Kimball and Holly

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Stevens and then folks from here

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Stateside Greg bishop and Walter Mosley

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a bunch of us were up there together uh

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Tim Bernal you know just having a

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fantastic time with

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by the way the late great Stanton

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Friedman he made an appearance that

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weekend so you know the last time you

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and I actually got to imbibe together it

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was in the presence of greatness quite

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literally and do you remember uh Stanton

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gave his first speech for the last time

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that night that's right the first

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lecture he ever gave in front of a

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public audience he gave to the people of

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uh Nova Scotia which was I mean how it

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blows my mind that we were able to see

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that and experience that and you know

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unfortunately not long after is when we

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lost him so to have that opportunity and

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to hear what started him on this path uh

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it's just it's a Memory I will hold

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dearly I think it's probably to my own

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dying days so yeah oh by the way um

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let's see bacon ched a bomb there in the

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chat has said I'm more of a Modelo Negra

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guy well I too let me tell you

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I enjoyed the Modelo Negra uh that's

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also I think it's just dark beer if I'm

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going to drink a beer it's it's going to

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be a dark beer um yeah and uh yeah

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that's that's definitely a good one as

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well you know on the subject of Stanton

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that's maybe kind of an interesting

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place to begin because

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the beginning here at the end there's

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Stanton giving his first lecture on UFOs

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uh close to the end of his life and you

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know even though no one you know Saul

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per se that Stanton was that close to uh

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you know the the great trip the great uh

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ecological trip into the Ever After uh

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we sensed it I think we would agree Ryan

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we sensed it he had he had announced his

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retirement

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and you know he was beginning to you

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know slow down the pace was was it

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wasn't as quick as it had once been in

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yet the incredible thing was the

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knowledge he could still give those

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lectures and he could still you know get

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up there and and speak

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if slower I mean as well I think as he

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ever did and uh

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uh you know I think Stanton really kind

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of brought to public attention uh at a

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time when the UFO phenomena was

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a very nebulous kind of a thing is it

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what is this uh are we looking at Russia

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are we looking at uh you know another

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world power who else could it be if not

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Russia but I mean is this secret U.S

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technology the Air Force is

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investigating it that much we know okay

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great

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at in that era again the UFO

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investigators were largely I mean you

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had Donald Kehoe you had uh you know

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Edwards of course behind the flying

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saucers you had you know many riders

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gray Barker people like that but Stanton

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becomes this

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you know the first guy as a civilian

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researcher but as a scientist and a

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nuclear physicist at that who starts

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doing the lectures the lecture circuits

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at the colleges

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and he starts bringing to broader public

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awareness you know guys ufology is

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something that seems to be far different

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from

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you know weather balloons and you know

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secret planes and things uh and the Blue

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Book boys and what they're studying and

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I again we can kind of credit Stanton

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for bringing into the modern dialogue

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you know the UFO phenomenon as we know

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it today I think he was instrumental in

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shifting and shaping the way that the

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public perceives that and

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even though he was a scientist of course

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becoming a historical archivist spending

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a lot of times at the National Archives

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looking for a paper trail that gives us

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an idea of not only if there is a

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phenomenon if there's a reality behind

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it but what role government has played

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in that and whether or not certain

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information has been withheld from the

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public so again really I can't think of

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another researcher who in in their

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lifetime did quite as much as Stanton

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Friedman did in that regard and what I

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take away from all that is the way that

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the very meticulous at times has to be

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but the chronicling of the history of

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the phenomenon yeah yeah is essential to

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understanding it and being able to see

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the big picture so to speak so I have to

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thank Stanton uh you know here at the

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outset of this conversation we're having

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four really laying a lot of that

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groundwork and kind of driving home for

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me how important history is in relation

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to the study of this topic absolutely

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and I mean if anything we take from what

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Stanton taught us and uh we can either

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look forward or look backward and what I

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am finding most unique about this

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research that you're doing currently

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within the UFO field is

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um going back as far as recorded history

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basically which is amazing and it kind

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of came to light to me with a um a

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recent sighting this past February

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um of a I I guess we could call it a a

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symbol or a um if you want to get

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religious a crucifix of such seen in the

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sky and um this actually propels us much

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further back so can you tell us a little

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about how this current event kind of um

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influenced your research in now moving

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backwards when it comes to not just UFOs

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but aerial phenomena in general right

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I'm glad you said that uh right there

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aerial phenomena in general what is

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important to understand uh I think that

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there are a lot of misconceptions about

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this now

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um it's almost difficult to phrase it

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I'm gonna do do my best here

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um when we talk about UFOs generally we

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have an idea of you know what we mean we

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mean a spaceship a flying saucer or

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something along those lines

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uh the thing about UFOs that is so

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perplexing and so difficult uh to

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reconcile with is the fact that a

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leading theory has been since the dawn

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of the the modern UFO era which again I

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don't think anyone would dispute that

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this begins in the summer of 1947

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you know with Kenneth Arnold uh also

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with the famous Roswell incident uh you

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know even if you prescribed to the idea

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that that was just you know a a mogul

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operation that at the time the Air Force

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couldn't come clean with and they had to

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say weather balloon and then we find up

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many years later uh of course having

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read the government documents on this

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Roswell case closed and you know seen

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both uh the uh approach by the hopeful

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ufologist to Once hopeful ufologists uh

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guys like Kevin Randall who then years

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later they kind of have to say you know

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after studying Roswell for so long I

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don't see as much they're a note of

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course right behind me here yep got my

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copies of the Roswell Daily Record if I

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had to guess I mean I'm not really so

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much in the of course actually you know

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you being uh one who has done a lot of

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work with Roswell in in modern times

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with your television program but you

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know I I kind of treat the the Roswell

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subject as you know one of these one of

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these landmark cases but one that you

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know it's probably probably not going to

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be the Smoking Gun that we once hoped it

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would be because after all of this

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exhaustive research whether or not

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there's a phenomenon represented by it

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we are left with the reality that it has

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not convinced you know many of the

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doubters and it hasn't offered us that

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the final reality right it's an

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interesting case in that regard

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especially historically speaking but

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when we go further back again you know

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we look at Roswell and we look at the

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evolution of you know disc landed you

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know on Roswell Ranch the next day

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actually it was a weather balloon years

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later the government you know changes

273
00:11:34,009 --> 00:11:32,220
the story again we're looking at a you

274
00:11:35,449 --> 00:11:34,019
know a project that for national

275
00:11:37,790 --> 00:11:35,459
security reasons couldn't be talked

276
00:11:40,009 --> 00:11:37,800
about at that time when we when we go

277
00:11:42,610 --> 00:11:40,019
further back what's interesting about

278
00:11:45,949 --> 00:11:42,620
what I call pre-uffology

279
00:11:49,130 --> 00:11:45,959
pre-1947 is first of all we don't have

280
00:11:52,190 --> 00:11:49,140
terms like flying sauce or disc or the

281
00:11:53,810 --> 00:11:52,200
later you know UFO uh which as you had

282
00:11:55,610 --> 00:11:53,820
pointed out they interviewed you on

283
00:11:57,710 --> 00:11:55,620
camera of course for

284
00:11:59,930 --> 00:11:57,720
um Seth Breedlove and Shannon legrose

285
00:12:02,769 --> 00:11:59,940
fantastic on the trail of UFOs and you'd

286
00:12:05,389 --> 00:12:02,779
said you know again that that term UFO

287
00:12:07,250 --> 00:12:05,399
comes from the government uh that comes

288
00:12:08,930 --> 00:12:07,260
from Edward rupult uh you know who's

289
00:12:11,210 --> 00:12:08,940
trying to Institute a more ambiguous

290
00:12:14,389 --> 00:12:11,220
term for the wide array of things that

291
00:12:17,329 --> 00:12:14,399
are being seen and going back further in

292
00:12:19,430 --> 00:12:17,339
time what has to be remembered about the

293
00:12:22,449 --> 00:12:19,440
study of UFOs especially from Antiquity

294
00:12:25,370 --> 00:12:22,459
up until the modern uh period is that

295
00:12:28,130 --> 00:12:25,380
people have again since time immemorial

296
00:12:30,889 --> 00:12:28,140
it has been part of The Human Experience

297
00:12:32,329 --> 00:12:30,899
to see things in the sky

298
00:12:41,269 --> 00:12:32,339
and to

299
00:12:47,150 --> 00:12:43,310
that all occurred prior to Modern

300
00:12:48,530 --> 00:12:47,160
ufology and I suspect strongly this is

301
00:12:51,110 --> 00:12:48,540
going to be a theme we'll continue to

302
00:12:53,449 --> 00:12:51,120
touch on throughout the night

303
00:12:55,750 --> 00:12:53,459
there I suspect strongly that in modern

304
00:12:58,250 --> 00:12:55,760
times people still do the same things

305
00:12:59,690 --> 00:12:58,260
and that essentially when people see

306
00:13:02,569 --> 00:12:59,700
things in the sky that they cannot

307
00:13:05,090 --> 00:13:02,579
explain whatever that may be Celestial

308
00:13:07,310 --> 00:13:05,100
phenomenon an aircraft at a distance you

309
00:13:09,829 --> 00:13:07,320
know an experimental technology an

310
00:13:11,269 --> 00:13:09,839
actual Flying Saucer a spaceship from

311
00:13:13,550 --> 00:13:11,279
you know who knows where Zeta two

312
00:13:15,170 --> 00:13:13,560
reticulate I strongly suspect that when

313
00:13:18,290 --> 00:13:15,180
people see something in the sky they

314
00:13:20,750 --> 00:13:18,300
cannot explain we still go through this

315
00:13:23,030 --> 00:13:20,760
Reckoning process of trying to interpret

316
00:13:25,190 --> 00:13:23,040
it what it what have I seen what could

317
00:13:26,210 --> 00:13:25,200
that be did it appear to interact with

318
00:13:29,090 --> 00:13:26,220
me

319
00:13:31,550 --> 00:13:29,100
did it try to communicate and you know

320
00:13:33,949 --> 00:13:31,560
how did this reshape my thoughts about

321
00:13:36,110 --> 00:13:33,959
existence you know these are all very

322
00:13:38,690 --> 00:13:36,120
you know existential questions and so a

323
00:13:40,250 --> 00:13:38,700
lot of the modern nuts and bolts UFO

324
00:13:41,629 --> 00:13:40,260
researchers kind of look at this and

325
00:13:43,370 --> 00:13:41,639
they're like this is not ufology what

326
00:13:46,370 --> 00:13:43,380
are we talking about here this is like

327
00:13:48,110 --> 00:13:46,380
psychology and uh on my program this

328
00:13:50,090 --> 00:13:48,120
week the Micah Hanks program I was

329
00:13:51,590 --> 00:13:50,100
joined by an interesting guest Ryan who

330
00:13:53,750 --> 00:13:51,600
you might want to talk with at some

331
00:13:57,230 --> 00:13:53,760
point too really interesting guy uh

332
00:13:58,910 --> 00:13:57,240
retired Professor David David Halperin

333
00:14:02,210 --> 00:13:58,920
and he's the author of a new book called

334
00:14:05,150 --> 00:14:02,220
intimate alien uh the hidden story of

335
00:14:07,129 --> 00:14:05,160
the UFO right right now halperin's

336
00:14:09,889 --> 00:14:07,139
contention is he actually doesn't

337
00:14:11,930 --> 00:14:09,899
believe in the UFO phenomena as a

338
00:14:14,030 --> 00:14:11,940
physical tangible phenomena he calls it

339
00:14:16,430 --> 00:14:14,040
a modern myth but he says that being a

340
00:14:17,810 --> 00:14:16,440
myth makes it no less real now let's be

341
00:14:20,030 --> 00:14:17,820
clear I differ

342
00:14:23,629 --> 00:14:20,040
from dear Dr Halperin on that point I do

343
00:14:25,250 --> 00:14:23,639
think that there is a uh there is a very

344
00:14:27,710 --> 00:14:25,260
good case to be made and that there is

345
00:14:30,290 --> 00:14:27,720
enough evidence in support of the idea

346
00:14:33,230 --> 00:14:30,300
that physical tangible objects

347
00:14:35,509 --> 00:14:33,240
do represent many UFO sightings and

348
00:14:38,449 --> 00:14:35,519
that's maybe the biggest takeaway

349
00:14:41,569 --> 00:14:38,459
from the big post 2017 New York Times

350
00:14:44,090 --> 00:14:41,579
atip you know UFO culture bomb that

351
00:14:45,829 --> 00:14:44,100
occurred you know in addition to you

352
00:14:48,230 --> 00:14:45,839
know talking with Lou Elizondo who I've

353
00:14:50,269 --> 00:14:48,240
only had limited uh interactions with

354
00:14:53,449 --> 00:14:50,279
but he's a wonderful guy

355
00:14:55,129 --> 00:14:53,459
um and um and also seeing the way that

356
00:14:57,129 --> 00:14:55,139
there's been this sort of uh again to

357
00:14:59,930 --> 00:14:57,139
borrow uh halperin's term a Renaissance

358
00:15:01,610 --> 00:14:59,940
uh similar to a Renaissance you know

359
00:15:03,170 --> 00:15:01,620
UFOs are big again they're they're

360
00:15:05,449 --> 00:15:03,180
popular this is something that many

361
00:15:08,389 --> 00:15:05,459
people are interested in well yeah

362
00:15:10,129 --> 00:15:08,399
that's really culturally significant but

363
00:15:12,610 --> 00:15:10,139
for I think us in the UFO Community we

364
00:15:15,170 --> 00:15:12,620
see these three pieces of video footage

365
00:15:18,290 --> 00:15:15,180
utilizing the raytheon's uh targeting

366
00:15:20,990 --> 00:15:18,300
pod the atflir and we appear to have

367
00:15:22,970 --> 00:15:21,000
something on camera you know vague and

368
00:15:25,129 --> 00:15:22,980
fuzzy though that is that is behaving

369
00:15:27,110 --> 00:15:25,139
unlike any technology we know

370
00:15:29,090 --> 00:15:27,120
and yet which appears to represent a

371
00:15:31,610 --> 00:15:29,100
technology so again I'm in that yes I

372
00:15:34,790 --> 00:15:31,620
think UFOs are a real

373
00:15:36,290 --> 00:15:34,800
tangible phenomena in many instances I

374
00:15:38,090 --> 00:15:36,300
don't know and this is going to sound

375
00:15:39,949 --> 00:15:38,100
really weird too Ryan as we're about to

376
00:15:43,670 --> 00:15:39,959
dive into the Antiquity stuff I don't

377
00:15:45,949 --> 00:15:43,680
know if people saw flying saucers in

378
00:15:47,090 --> 00:15:45,959
ancient times but the point I want to

379
00:15:48,650 --> 00:15:47,100
try and drive home tonight is we're

380
00:15:50,990 --> 00:15:48,660
talking about this is that

381
00:15:52,790 --> 00:15:51,000
I think that to understand UFOs you have

382
00:15:54,829 --> 00:15:52,800
to understand the levels of

383
00:15:56,930 --> 00:15:54,839
interpretation that humans apply to them

384
00:15:59,150 --> 00:15:56,940
and that is not something that is modern

385
00:16:00,710 --> 00:15:59,160
that is not a modern phenomena people

386
00:16:02,509 --> 00:16:00,720
seeing things they can't identify and

387
00:16:04,129 --> 00:16:02,519
then interpreting and projecting onto it

388
00:16:06,230 --> 00:16:04,139
and as we're going to see

389
00:16:08,569 --> 00:16:06,240
people did that in the ancient past now

390
00:16:10,069 --> 00:16:08,579
okay you you touched on something you

391
00:16:12,050 --> 00:16:10,079
mentioned this cross

392
00:16:14,509 --> 00:16:12,060
from February 2020. I'll give you a

393
00:16:16,850 --> 00:16:14,519
quick uh recap here that this was

394
00:16:19,430 --> 00:16:16,860
reported by The Star online just in

395
00:16:21,230 --> 00:16:19,440
February a mysterious cross has been

396
00:16:23,090 --> 00:16:21,240
captured appeared uh appearing above the

397
00:16:25,730 --> 00:16:23,100
Holy Land in Israel in what some have

398
00:16:27,650 --> 00:16:25,740
called a sign from the heavens the image

399
00:16:30,769 --> 00:16:27,660
by an uploader known only as the rabbi

400
00:16:34,610 --> 00:16:30,779
other uh appropriate name and sent into

401
00:16:36,590 --> 00:16:34,620
YouTube conspiracy theorist Mr BB 333 uh

402
00:16:38,329 --> 00:16:36,600
shows what seems like a dark cross in

403
00:16:39,470 --> 00:16:38,339
the clouds with a number seven next to

404
00:16:41,269 --> 00:16:39,480
it now

405
00:16:43,670 --> 00:16:41,279
in the video

406
00:16:45,650 --> 00:16:43,680
what you're seeing are clouds

407
00:16:48,949 --> 00:16:45,660
all right they're clouds it's not a

408
00:16:51,650 --> 00:16:48,959
cross-shaped object it is not an actual

409
00:16:53,150 --> 00:16:51,660
cross suspended in the sky it is purely

410
00:16:54,769 --> 00:16:53,160
clouds

411
00:16:56,389 --> 00:16:54,779
and I think most of us have been outside

412
00:16:58,370 --> 00:16:56,399
you know laying on a blanket looking up

413
00:17:00,110 --> 00:16:58,380
at the sky on a you know a pretty day

414
00:17:02,389 --> 00:17:00,120
and you see things in the clouds what do

415
00:17:05,210 --> 00:17:02,399
you see I see a rabbit what do you see I

416
00:17:07,429 --> 00:17:05,220
see a puppy dog you know yeah

417
00:17:11,150 --> 00:17:07,439
but what was that called again Micah

418
00:17:13,490 --> 00:17:11,160
peridulia there we go just that is just

419
00:17:16,370 --> 00:17:13,500
the faculty of the mind to essentially

420
00:17:18,949 --> 00:17:16,380
assign uh significance to or to see

421
00:17:21,230 --> 00:17:18,959
images in random you know constructs

422
00:17:22,850 --> 00:17:21,240
where no actual image exists well how

423
00:17:24,470 --> 00:17:22,860
appropriate of course over the Holy Land

424
00:17:26,230 --> 00:17:24,480
people look up and they see across now

425
00:17:29,630 --> 00:17:26,240
granted there was a cross-shaped

426
00:17:31,789 --> 00:17:29,640
undeniably cross-shaped cloud but is

427
00:17:33,770 --> 00:17:31,799
that a cross is that a symbol is it a

428
00:17:36,409 --> 00:17:33,780
sign or is it just a cloud

429
00:17:38,150 --> 00:17:36,419
now this is really interesting to me

430
00:17:40,190 --> 00:17:38,160
especially in the context of looking at

431
00:17:42,470 --> 00:17:40,200
UFOs and Antiquity because

432
00:17:45,590 --> 00:17:42,480
throughout ancient times

433
00:17:49,850 --> 00:17:45,600
you will find report after report of

434
00:17:52,730 --> 00:17:49,860
clouds or crosses or stars or other

435
00:17:54,470 --> 00:17:52,740
objects that resemble across hovering in

436
00:17:56,930 --> 00:17:54,480
the sky or sometimes just a curious

437
00:17:59,210 --> 00:17:56,940
Apparition that is a like an aluminous

438
00:18:01,909 --> 00:17:59,220
cross hovering over a city like

439
00:18:04,669 --> 00:18:01,919
Constantinople throughout time there

440
00:18:07,010 --> 00:18:04,679
have been so many instances where a

441
00:18:10,490 --> 00:18:07,020
religious symbol appears in the sky

442
00:18:12,890 --> 00:18:10,500
hovering over a battlefield or a

443
00:18:16,070 --> 00:18:12,900
cultural site or a city during a

444
00:18:18,350 --> 00:18:16,080
siege-like Constantinople and I have to

445
00:18:19,669 --> 00:18:18,360
reference the incredible work and this

446
00:18:21,409 --> 00:18:19,679
is a book I'm sure that you're probably

447
00:18:23,810 --> 00:18:21,419
familiar with as well as many of our

448
00:18:25,669 --> 00:18:23,820
listeners wonders in the sky the Jacques

449
00:18:28,730 --> 00:18:25,679
valet and Chris aubick co-authored a few

450
00:18:31,010 --> 00:18:28,740
years ago right that book you know some

451
00:18:33,770 --> 00:18:31,020
have criticized it because some feel

452
00:18:36,830 --> 00:18:33,780
that well a lot of these obviously

453
00:18:39,710 --> 00:18:36,840
religious you know symbols and signs and

454
00:18:42,049 --> 00:18:39,720
things these are not UFOs why are these

455
00:18:43,789 --> 00:18:42,059
in this book others have said you know

456
00:18:45,289 --> 00:18:43,799
if these guys are trying to prove that

457
00:18:46,730 --> 00:18:45,299
aliens were here in a long you know a

458
00:18:48,110 --> 00:18:46,740
long time ago they're doing a very poor

459
00:18:50,330 --> 00:18:48,120
job you know

460
00:18:52,789 --> 00:18:50,340
and yet I would say to people I noticed

461
00:18:53,810 --> 00:18:52,799
uh you put up on social media earlier uh

462
00:18:55,010 --> 00:18:53,820
somebody asked what kinds of things

463
00:18:57,409 --> 00:18:55,020
should I read in preparation for this

464
00:19:01,310 --> 00:18:57,419
and you put a copy of ballet's passport

465
00:19:05,690 --> 00:19:03,549
anyone who is familiar with valet's

466
00:19:07,370 --> 00:19:05,700
reinterpretation of the state of ufology

467
00:19:10,549 --> 00:19:07,380
with that book

468
00:19:12,770 --> 00:19:10,559
will know that he at that point

469
00:19:14,930 --> 00:19:12,780
was becoming kind of

470
00:19:18,110 --> 00:19:14,940
dissatisfied with the Extraterrestrial

471
00:19:20,630 --> 00:19:18,120
approach to studying UFOs

472
00:19:22,190 --> 00:19:20,640
although he does not come out and say it

473
00:19:25,370 --> 00:19:22,200
is something else and here is what it is

474
00:19:26,990 --> 00:19:25,380
he never offers explicitly another

475
00:19:28,850 --> 00:19:27,000
interpretation but what he does say in

476
00:19:31,669 --> 00:19:28,860
that book is essentially

477
00:19:34,669 --> 00:19:31,679
as anybody else seeing the Curious

478
00:19:36,890 --> 00:19:34,679
similarity between fairy folklore and

479
00:19:39,529 --> 00:19:36,900
the Traditions associated with the FAE

480
00:19:42,650 --> 00:19:39,539
going back throughout history and many

481
00:19:44,150 --> 00:19:42,660
of the modern UFO contact experiences is

482
00:19:47,150 --> 00:19:44,160
that to say that they are one end the

483
00:19:48,890 --> 00:19:47,160
same maybe not but one cannot deny the

484
00:19:51,529 --> 00:19:48,900
similarities and that's what valet was

485
00:19:53,330 --> 00:19:51,539
trying to point out here again one

486
00:19:55,990 --> 00:19:53,340
interpretation of that may be that

487
00:19:59,710 --> 00:19:56,000
whatever stimuli

488
00:20:02,390 --> 00:19:59,720
is actually there or not the human

489
00:20:04,850 --> 00:20:02,400
interpretation of the phenomena causes

490
00:20:06,110 --> 00:20:04,860
us to assign an agency to it and I think

491
00:20:07,909 --> 00:20:06,120
that that's true whether or not we are

492
00:20:09,230 --> 00:20:07,919
looking at a cloud that's shaped like a

493
00:20:10,549 --> 00:20:09,240
cross or we're looking at an actual

494
00:20:13,190 --> 00:20:10,559
Flying Saucer and we don't know where

495
00:20:15,730 --> 00:20:13,200
it's from or who's in that craft but we

496
00:20:19,250 --> 00:20:15,740
have ideas it must be this or that so

497
00:20:20,450 --> 00:20:19,260
valet I think and all Beck uh what

498
00:20:22,909 --> 00:20:20,460
they're trying to do is they're trying

499
00:20:25,430 --> 00:20:22,919
to point out look the similar

500
00:20:27,710 --> 00:20:25,440
you know nature of that Human Experience

501
00:20:30,409 --> 00:20:27,720
of seeing something holy miraculous or

502
00:20:32,150 --> 00:20:30,419
unexplained and the significance that we

503
00:20:34,190 --> 00:20:32,160
assign to it that is not something that

504
00:20:35,990 --> 00:20:34,200
began with UFO research it's something

505
00:20:38,690 --> 00:20:36,000
that has been with us

506
00:20:41,750 --> 00:20:38,700
since ancient times and the UFO

507
00:20:44,390 --> 00:20:41,760
phenomenon whatever it represents is a

508
00:20:46,130 --> 00:20:44,400
modern manifestation of that and man I

509
00:20:47,630 --> 00:20:46,140
tell you again I think a lot of people

510
00:20:48,890 --> 00:20:47,640
who read the book they're like oh wow

511
00:20:51,169 --> 00:20:48,900
look you know UFOs have been flying

512
00:20:54,830 --> 00:20:51,179
around since you know before you know

513
00:20:56,450 --> 00:20:54,840
Christ well that's one interpretation I

514
00:20:58,070 --> 00:20:56,460
think though that valet is trying to

515
00:20:59,510 --> 00:20:58,080
inspire people to look a little deeper

516
00:21:01,190 --> 00:20:59,520
and say you know again there's something

517
00:21:04,730 --> 00:21:01,200
here about The Human Experience so now

518
00:21:07,190 --> 00:21:04,740
coming back to this cross again this

519
00:21:12,350 --> 00:21:07,200
occurred in 2020 man this this isn't 850

520
00:21:14,750 --> 00:21:12,360
BC right but I make a uh a comparison

521
00:21:17,390 --> 00:21:14,760
between this case and actually a similar

522
00:21:19,250 --> 00:21:17,400
one that occurred uh on May 7th in the

523
00:21:21,890 --> 00:21:19,260
year 351 A.D

524
00:21:22,909 --> 00:21:21,900
oh I'm going I'm going way back and we

525
00:21:26,090 --> 00:21:22,919
might as well take it all the way back

526
00:21:27,970 --> 00:21:26,100
now and then take that Tardis man let's

527
00:21:31,850 --> 00:21:27,980
jump in the Tardis ladies

528
00:21:34,490 --> 00:21:31,860
now this is I believe this example was

529
00:21:35,930 --> 00:21:34,500
uh touched on uh by valet and uh all

530
00:21:37,190 --> 00:21:35,940
back in their book but they cited

531
00:21:39,649 --> 00:21:37,200
different

532
00:21:41,750 --> 00:21:39,659
um version of The Source but the reports

533
00:21:45,049 --> 00:21:41,760
nonetheless comes from uh salminius

534
00:21:46,789 --> 00:21:45,059
heremius zosuminas in his ecclesiastical

535
00:21:49,610 --> 00:21:46,799
history now again we're going to a

536
00:21:51,049 --> 00:21:49,620
religious text and an account uh of

537
00:21:53,390 --> 00:21:51,059
something that occurred on May 7th in

538
00:21:55,549 --> 00:21:53,400
the year 351 looking for UFOs this is

539
00:21:57,590 --> 00:21:55,559
going to be a wild ride

540
00:21:59,149 --> 00:21:57,600
um what occurred was the appearance of a

541
00:22:01,190 --> 00:21:59,159
cross in the sky it wasn't just on that

542
00:22:03,289 --> 00:22:01,200
date in fact it stayed in the sky for

543
00:22:04,730 --> 00:22:03,299
you know many nights and they say

544
00:22:07,850 --> 00:22:04,740
remained in the sky and people were able

545
00:22:10,130 --> 00:22:07,860
to see it but the account that um that

546
00:22:12,409 --> 00:22:10,140
zosumenus gives us is at the time and I

547
00:22:14,450 --> 00:22:12,419
quote that Cyril administered the Church

548
00:22:16,610 --> 00:22:14,460
of Jerusalem after Maximus the sign of

549
00:22:18,350 --> 00:22:16,620
the cross appeared in the heavens it's

550
00:22:20,029 --> 00:22:18,360
shown brilliantly not with Divergent

551
00:22:22,490 --> 00:22:20,039
Rays like a comet but with the

552
00:22:25,850 --> 00:22:22,500
concentration of a great deal of light

553
00:22:28,070 --> 00:22:25,860
apparently dense and yet transparent now

554
00:22:30,890 --> 00:22:28,080
again he is apparently not a first-hand

555
00:22:34,490 --> 00:22:30,900
Observer he actually collects this from

556
00:22:35,990 --> 00:22:34,500
other observers note we have a guy who

557
00:22:37,250 --> 00:22:36,000
was giving a history of an account of

558
00:22:38,990 --> 00:22:37,260
something strange seen in the sky and

559
00:22:41,270 --> 00:22:39,000
he's collecting eyewitness accounts from

560
00:22:43,190 --> 00:22:41,280
people very similar to the way that

561
00:22:45,529 --> 00:22:43,200
modern ufology is conducted isn't that

562
00:22:46,970 --> 00:22:45,539
interesting yeah very the account

563
00:22:48,529 --> 00:22:46,980
continues

564
00:22:50,330 --> 00:22:48,539
it goes on to say its length was about

565
00:22:52,370 --> 00:22:50,340
15 stadia and that's significant we'll

566
00:22:54,649 --> 00:22:52,380
come back to that in a moment its length

567
00:22:56,990 --> 00:22:54,659
was about 15 stadia from Calvary to the

568
00:22:58,909 --> 00:22:57,000
Mount of Olives and its breadth was in

569
00:23:01,370 --> 00:22:58,919
proportion to its length so

570
00:23:03,950 --> 00:23:01,380
extraordinary phenomenon excited

571
00:23:05,690 --> 00:23:03,960
Universal Terror men women and children

572
00:23:07,909 --> 00:23:05,700
left their houses the marketplace or

573
00:23:09,590 --> 00:23:07,919
their respective Employments and ran to

574
00:23:11,510 --> 00:23:09,600
the church where they sang hymns to

575
00:23:14,090 --> 00:23:11,520
Christ together and voluntarily

576
00:23:15,710 --> 00:23:14,100
confessed their belief in God the

577
00:23:18,169 --> 00:23:15,720
intelligence Disturbed in no little

578
00:23:20,450 --> 00:23:18,179
measure our entire dominions and this

579
00:23:22,610 --> 00:23:20,460
happened rapidly for as the custom was

580
00:23:24,289 --> 00:23:22,620
there were travelers from every part of

581
00:23:26,810 --> 00:23:24,299
the world so to speak who were dwelling

582
00:23:29,570 --> 00:23:26,820
at Jerusalem for prayer or to visit its

583
00:23:31,610 --> 00:23:29,580
places of interest these were spectators

584
00:23:33,409 --> 00:23:31,620
of the sign and divulged the facts to

585
00:23:34,730 --> 00:23:33,419
their friends at home

586
00:23:39,529 --> 00:23:34,740
so

587
00:23:41,390 --> 00:23:39,539
that zosumenus gives us in this account

588
00:23:43,669 --> 00:23:41,400
including for instance he tells us that

589
00:23:45,649 --> 00:23:43,679
the emperor was made acquainted with the

590
00:23:47,570 --> 00:23:45,659
occurrence partly by numerous reports

591
00:23:50,450 --> 00:23:47,580
concerning it which were then current

592
00:23:52,850 --> 00:23:50,460
and partly by a letter from Cyril the

593
00:23:54,470 --> 00:23:52,860
bishop it was said that this Prodigy and

594
00:23:56,690 --> 00:23:54,480
that's an important term we're going to

595
00:23:58,370 --> 00:23:56,700
come back to that in a moment also that

596
00:24:00,470 --> 00:23:58,380
this Prodigy was a fulfillment of an

597
00:24:02,810 --> 00:24:00,480
ancient prophecy contained in the Holy

598
00:24:04,610 --> 00:24:02,820
Scriptures it was the means of the

599
00:24:06,950 --> 00:24:04,620
conversion of many pagans and Jews to

600
00:24:10,190 --> 00:24:06,960
Christianity now

601
00:24:12,049 --> 00:24:10,200
we cannot be 100 certain what this

602
00:24:14,149 --> 00:24:12,059
object was but

603
00:24:16,549 --> 00:24:14,159
what is kind of novel is the way that

604
00:24:18,649 --> 00:24:16,559
people use landmarks to orient where

605
00:24:21,830 --> 00:24:18,659
this thing appeared in the sky and we

606
00:24:24,049 --> 00:24:21,840
have the date and with modern uh star

607
00:24:26,390 --> 00:24:24,059
tracking Technologies astronomical

608
00:24:28,310 --> 00:24:26,400
programmings you know programs rather

609
00:24:29,930 --> 00:24:28,320
like Starry Night Pro for instance

610
00:24:31,549 --> 00:24:29,940
that's a great one although it's a

611
00:24:34,310 --> 00:24:31,559
little costly but you can anybody can

612
00:24:35,630 --> 00:24:34,320
purchase it there's also a I think

613
00:24:37,310 --> 00:24:35,640
there's a free version of it then

614
00:24:38,750 --> 00:24:37,320
there's also like a student version but

615
00:24:41,390 --> 00:24:38,760
with programs like this what we can do

616
00:24:43,490 --> 00:24:41,400
is we can plug in the date

617
00:24:44,990 --> 00:24:43,500
give the location we can actually see if

618
00:24:47,690 --> 00:24:45,000
there would be a bright celestial object

619
00:24:49,250 --> 00:24:47,700
that would have appeared at that time

620
00:24:50,630 --> 00:24:49,260
um then there's also I think Gary Kronk

621
00:24:52,970 --> 00:24:50,640
I believe is the author of the

622
00:24:55,549 --> 00:24:52,980
cometology series where he has gone

623
00:24:57,230 --> 00:24:55,559
through history and he has noted where

624
00:24:59,710 --> 00:24:57,240
you know famous instances of the

625
00:25:02,090 --> 00:24:59,720
appearances of comets occur as well

626
00:25:03,409 --> 00:25:02,100
there's actually a lot we can do many

627
00:25:05,450 --> 00:25:03,419
would say well we'll never know what

628
00:25:07,549 --> 00:25:05,460
that was yeah for the contrary there are

629
00:25:09,830 --> 00:25:07,559
a lot of things that can be done to help

630
00:25:11,870 --> 00:25:09,840
us understand what exactly we might have

631
00:25:14,510 --> 00:25:11,880
been seeing but I want to kind of go

632
00:25:16,310 --> 00:25:14,520
into this because this is again

633
00:25:18,289 --> 00:25:16,320
this variable may have been a celestial

634
00:25:20,750 --> 00:25:18,299
object who knows what it was

635
00:25:22,610 --> 00:25:20,760
but to say that we'll never know that's

636
00:25:24,169 --> 00:25:22,620
where I think the historical UFO

637
00:25:26,330 --> 00:25:24,179
researcher kind of goes well maybe not

638
00:25:28,310 --> 00:25:26,340
let's look at some of the clues this is

639
00:25:30,230 --> 00:25:28,320
where it gets fun let's see what we can

640
00:25:31,730 --> 00:25:30,240
actually discern about this all right

641
00:25:33,289 --> 00:25:31,740
now

642
00:25:34,730 --> 00:25:33,299
we can see that the object appears to

643
00:25:37,570 --> 00:25:34,740
have been only a nighttime occurrence

644
00:25:39,769 --> 00:25:37,580
that much seems pretty evident

645
00:25:41,570 --> 00:25:39,779
Compares it to other known Celestial

646
00:25:43,250 --> 00:25:41,580
phenomena from that time primarily that

647
00:25:45,049 --> 00:25:43,260
we're only visible at night for instance

648
00:25:47,390 --> 00:25:45,059
he notes and I quote him here it's shown

649
00:25:49,190 --> 00:25:47,400
brilliantly not with Divergent Rays like

650
00:25:51,470 --> 00:25:49,200
a comet so he Compares it to a comet

651
00:25:53,090 --> 00:25:51,480
with the concentration of a great deal

652
00:25:55,190 --> 00:25:53,100
of light apparently dense and yet

653
00:25:58,010 --> 00:25:55,200
transparent I mean that's a great

654
00:26:00,230 --> 00:25:58,020
uh you know uh description that he gives

655
00:26:02,149 --> 00:26:00,240
a visual yeah but I was really

656
00:26:03,529 --> 00:26:02,159
interested by the fact that he noted

657
00:26:06,169 --> 00:26:03,539
that the length of the Cross was about

658
00:26:08,930 --> 00:26:06,179
15 stadia from Calvary to the Mount of

659
00:26:10,610 --> 00:26:08,940
Olives and its breadth was in proportion

660
00:26:12,169 --> 00:26:10,620
to its length

661
00:26:13,970 --> 00:26:12,179
now from this description of course this

662
00:26:17,090 --> 00:26:13,980
gives us a pretty good idea of how much

663
00:26:19,730 --> 00:26:17,100
space in the sky the so-called arms of

664
00:26:22,909 --> 00:26:19,740
the Cross actually occupied

665
00:26:24,590 --> 00:26:22,919
and you know the idea of the one of the

666
00:26:26,330 --> 00:26:24,600
problems I guess that we have here is he

667
00:26:28,070 --> 00:26:26,340
mentions the Mount of Olives we were

668
00:26:29,149 --> 00:26:28,080
pretty sure where that is Calvary of

669
00:26:31,130 --> 00:26:29,159
course

670
00:26:32,570 --> 00:26:31,140
there's if we're if we're referring to

671
00:26:33,769 --> 00:26:32,580
the Bible and you know religious texts

672
00:26:35,990 --> 00:26:33,779
you know there is some dispute about

673
00:26:38,810 --> 00:26:36,000
where Calvary would have been

674
00:26:41,269 --> 00:26:38,820
I I Golgotha essentially the location of

675
00:26:42,649 --> 00:26:41,279
Christ's crucifixion but what's really

676
00:26:44,630 --> 00:26:42,659
interesting is

677
00:26:46,190 --> 00:26:44,640
historically speaking we know exactly

678
00:26:48,110 --> 00:26:46,200
what he was talking about the reason why

679
00:26:50,090 --> 00:26:48,120
Ryan is because Helena the mother of

680
00:26:53,090 --> 00:26:50,100
Constantine the Great had actually ages

681
00:26:55,669 --> 00:26:53,100
26 years prior to when this occurred she

682
00:26:57,350 --> 00:26:55,679
had designated uh the site known as the

683
00:26:59,149 --> 00:26:57,360
the Church of the Holy sepulch uh

684
00:27:01,490 --> 00:26:59,159
Sepulcher as the location of the

685
00:27:03,890 --> 00:27:01,500
crucifixion it's still there today okay

686
00:27:05,690 --> 00:27:03,900
so we know the actual Monument that

687
00:27:07,850 --> 00:27:05,700
zosuman was referring to when he

688
00:27:09,830 --> 00:27:07,860
describes Calvary

689
00:27:11,930 --> 00:27:09,840
so I went into the maps

690
00:27:15,049 --> 00:27:11,940
and and I'm like okay cool we know

691
00:27:17,210 --> 00:27:15,059
exactly between this location and that

692
00:27:19,730 --> 00:27:17,220
location how much of the sky was

693
00:27:20,990 --> 00:27:19,740
occupied by this this and that's a fair

694
00:27:22,970 --> 00:27:21,000
amount but we also have to take into

695
00:27:25,610 --> 00:27:22,980
consideration where would one have been

696
00:27:27,649 --> 00:27:25,620
standing when they're observing I would

697
00:27:29,990 --> 00:27:27,659
presume probably

698
00:27:33,230 --> 00:27:30,000
that they would have been in you know

699
00:27:36,049 --> 00:27:33,240
Town Center okay which I I think I've

700
00:27:38,210 --> 00:27:36,059
got it uh plotted out to being uh from

701
00:27:40,549 --> 00:27:38,220
Jerusalem Town Center it's about 1.7 uh

702
00:27:41,930 --> 00:27:40,559
1.17 miles due Northeast as the crow

703
00:27:44,570 --> 00:27:41,940
flies to the Church of the Holy

704
00:27:46,610 --> 00:27:44,580
sepulture or Calvary so I'm able to

705
00:27:48,890 --> 00:27:46,620
guesstimate that he's probably over

706
00:27:51,110 --> 00:27:48,900
there from you know somewhere in in the

707
00:27:53,330 --> 00:27:51,120
main Town Center from Jerusalem looking

708
00:27:55,250 --> 00:27:53,340
East he would have to be to be able to

709
00:27:56,330 --> 00:27:55,260
observe these two locations so now we

710
00:27:59,990 --> 00:27:56,340
know what region of the sky it's

711
00:28:01,909 --> 00:28:00,000
occupying too because he's looking East

712
00:28:03,710 --> 00:28:01,919
um some additional details I've gotten

713
00:28:05,510 --> 00:28:03,720
my notes Here further distant to the

714
00:28:08,090 --> 00:28:05,520
East and slightly South Beyond is the

715
00:28:10,070 --> 00:28:08,100
Mount of Olives at a distance of 1.98

716
00:28:12,409 --> 00:28:10,080
miles from Jerusalem proper according to

717
00:28:14,149 --> 00:28:12,419
Google maps from the perspective of an

718
00:28:16,130 --> 00:28:14,159
observer again in Jerusalem looking East

719
00:28:17,630 --> 00:28:16,140
that distance across the Horizon between

720
00:28:21,950 --> 00:28:17,640
the two locations we're talking about

721
00:28:24,649 --> 00:28:21,960
would appear to be roughly uh 557 meters

722
00:28:26,690 --> 00:28:24,659
or 1827 feet so

723
00:28:28,970 --> 00:28:26,700
whatever this object in the sky is that

724
00:28:32,690 --> 00:28:28,980
they were seeing at night was occupying

725
00:28:34,370 --> 00:28:32,700
quite a large region of the sky

726
00:28:35,630 --> 00:28:34,380
that brings us to the question of what

727
00:28:37,789 --> 00:28:35,640
it was actually I do want to touch on

728
00:28:39,230 --> 00:28:37,799
stadia because that's the um the

729
00:28:41,810 --> 00:28:39,240
measurement that he's using when he

730
00:28:44,450 --> 00:28:41,820
talks about this the plural form of the

731
00:28:46,269 --> 00:28:44,460
Greek Stadium of course now Scholars

732
00:28:49,250 --> 00:28:46,279
disagree about what that length actually

733
00:28:52,370 --> 00:28:49,260
would have been

734
00:28:54,350 --> 00:28:52,380
um and some measurements range from 157

735
00:28:55,850 --> 00:28:54,360
to 209 meters

736
00:28:57,649 --> 00:28:55,860
but what's really interesting and what I

737
00:28:59,930 --> 00:28:57,659
found is that we know the exact distance

738
00:29:03,230 --> 00:28:59,940
between the calvary he referenced and

739
00:29:05,149 --> 00:29:03,240
the Mount of Olives if we multiply the

740
00:29:06,610 --> 00:29:05,159
higher estimate of around 209 meters

741
00:29:09,470 --> 00:29:06,620
okay

742
00:29:10,970 --> 00:29:09,480
we multiply that by 15 which would have

743
00:29:12,649 --> 00:29:10,980
been the number of stadia that he

744
00:29:17,570 --> 00:29:12,659
actually gave us in the account he wrote

745
00:29:19,070 --> 00:29:17,580
we get 3.14 kilometers or 10 290 feet

746
00:29:21,049 --> 00:29:19,080
and that's very close to the modern

747
00:29:22,970 --> 00:29:21,059
distance between those two locations so

748
00:29:24,110 --> 00:29:22,980
what that tells us is not only do we

749
00:29:26,510 --> 00:29:24,120
have a good idea of what the stadium

750
00:29:28,190 --> 00:29:26,520
meant but zushman gave a very good

751
00:29:31,549 --> 00:29:28,200
estimate of that length that distance

752
00:29:32,630 --> 00:29:31,559
between areas yeah so I know I'm geeking

753
00:29:35,330 --> 00:29:32,640
out here a little bit but the point I'm

754
00:29:37,490 --> 00:29:35,340
trying to make is that there's a lot of

755
00:29:39,590 --> 00:29:37,500
information that can be gleaned from

756
00:29:41,510 --> 00:29:39,600
historical texts and sources and

757
00:29:43,310 --> 00:29:41,520
documented sightings of things like this

758
00:29:46,010 --> 00:29:43,320
the problem is

759
00:29:47,450 --> 00:29:46,020
again at this point I'm not certain what

760
00:29:50,090 --> 00:29:47,460
exactly the object would have been

761
00:29:51,590 --> 00:29:50,100
although if I had to guess I would

762
00:29:53,810 --> 00:29:51,600
probably say that there were was a

763
00:29:55,850 --> 00:29:53,820
bright star or some similar Celestial

764
00:29:58,850 --> 00:29:55,860
phenomena that was producing what are

765
00:30:00,409 --> 00:29:58,860
called refraction spikes now often

766
00:30:01,669 --> 00:30:00,419
you'll you'll read that refraction

767
00:30:02,990 --> 00:30:01,679
spikes or something if you're looking

768
00:30:05,149 --> 00:30:03,000
through a telescope you're certainly

769
00:30:06,830 --> 00:30:05,159
going to see a star producing those you

770
00:30:08,570 --> 00:30:06,840
see them in photographs too because a

771
00:30:09,409 --> 00:30:08,580
lens is involved but the the naked eye

772
00:30:11,870 --> 00:30:09,419
you're not going to see that with the

773
00:30:12,950 --> 00:30:11,880
naked eye under the right circumstances

774
00:30:14,810 --> 00:30:12,960
you can

775
00:30:16,250 --> 00:30:14,820
and so the question that remains

776
00:30:18,169 --> 00:30:16,260
unanswered and what's going to be a

777
00:30:19,549 --> 00:30:18,179
little more difficult to get access to

778
00:30:21,350 --> 00:30:19,559
Starry Night Pro is probably not going

779
00:30:24,350 --> 00:30:21,360
to give us this is what the atmospheric

780
00:30:25,789 --> 00:30:24,360
conditions were around Jerusalem at the

781
00:30:27,470 --> 00:30:25,799
time that this sighting occurred if only

782
00:30:28,610 --> 00:30:27,480
we had an account and there may be a

783
00:30:30,289 --> 00:30:28,620
historical account that would give us

784
00:30:33,049 --> 00:30:30,299
some information about that that might

785
00:30:34,850 --> 00:30:33,059
help us clear up what exactly conditions

786
00:30:36,830 --> 00:30:34,860
would have been conducive to refraction

787
00:30:39,950 --> 00:30:36,840
spikes occurring but since they describe

788
00:30:43,490 --> 00:30:39,960
a you know again a cross shape and one

789
00:30:45,289 --> 00:30:43,500
of which occupies this distance relative

790
00:30:47,930 --> 00:30:45,299
to objects on the ground again my best

791
00:30:49,310 --> 00:30:47,940
guess would be a bright star and again

792
00:30:51,049 --> 00:30:49,320
somebody out there who might have the

793
00:30:52,490 --> 00:30:51,059
pro version of Starry Night Pro if

794
00:30:54,350 --> 00:30:52,500
you're hearing this I'd love to talk

795
00:30:57,110 --> 00:30:54,360
because I bet we could figure this one

796
00:31:00,110 --> 00:30:57,120
out now maybe not all historical UFO

797
00:31:01,430 --> 00:31:00,120
accounts can be solved in this way and

798
00:31:02,690 --> 00:31:01,440
I'm by no means the only researcher

799
00:31:03,830 --> 00:31:02,700
who's doing this in fact there are some

800
00:31:05,510 --> 00:31:03,840
who do it far better and who've been

801
00:31:07,430 --> 00:31:05,520
doing it for much longer Chris albeck

802
00:31:09,350 --> 00:31:07,440
who we already mentioned is certainly

803
00:31:11,210 --> 00:31:09,360
one of them but I'm very interested

804
00:31:12,710 --> 00:31:11,220
because again did they say a flying

805
00:31:15,649 --> 00:31:12,720
saucer no

806
00:31:17,630 --> 00:31:15,659
they said us they saw a cross in the sky

807
00:31:20,149 --> 00:31:17,640
and here again I'm very interested in

808
00:31:23,269 --> 00:31:20,159
the idea that if some of these objects

809
00:31:25,029 --> 00:31:23,279
in these accounts from Antiquity are

810
00:31:26,870 --> 00:31:25,039
identifiable utilizing modern

811
00:31:28,370 --> 00:31:26,880
astronomical software and other

812
00:31:31,010 --> 00:31:28,380
Technologies

813
00:31:32,690 --> 00:31:31,020
then we go back and we read what kinds

814
00:31:34,549 --> 00:31:32,700
of accounts they give and what

815
00:31:36,409 --> 00:31:34,559
interpretation was given in those days

816
00:31:37,850 --> 00:31:36,419
and here again I think that the

817
00:31:39,230 --> 00:31:37,860
fundamental premise I offered at the

818
00:31:41,090 --> 00:31:39,240
beginning that people will see things

819
00:31:43,430 --> 00:31:41,100
which we may understand very well today

820
00:31:44,870 --> 00:31:43,440
but which in that time in that context

821
00:31:46,730 --> 00:31:44,880
they did not

822
00:31:48,649 --> 00:31:46,740
we are able to see exactly what I'm

823
00:31:50,990 --> 00:31:48,659
describing they project onto it meaning

824
00:31:53,510 --> 00:31:51,000
a holy Vision you know something of

825
00:31:55,190 --> 00:31:53,520
religious significance and we have to

826
00:31:58,010 --> 00:31:55,200
take that into consideration as modern

827
00:32:00,470 --> 00:31:58,020
UFO researchers sometimes people see

828
00:32:02,149 --> 00:32:00,480
things but in this technological Age The

829
00:32:04,490 --> 00:32:02,159
Space Age we've gone to the Moon we've

830
00:32:07,070 --> 00:32:04,500
sent probes out beyond our solar system

831
00:32:10,149 --> 00:32:07,080
it's only natural that we will also

832
00:32:13,190 --> 00:32:10,159
interpret unusual aerial phenomena today

833
00:32:14,690 --> 00:32:13,200
through that technological lens now

834
00:32:16,850 --> 00:32:14,700
some of these things like I've mentioned

835
00:32:19,250 --> 00:32:16,860
I think do represent a technology but

836
00:32:21,230 --> 00:32:19,260
the skeptic in me also has to say we've

837
00:32:23,630 --> 00:32:21,240
got to be very careful and the more that

838
00:32:26,570 --> 00:32:23,640
we can rule out the better prepared we

839
00:32:28,610 --> 00:32:26,580
are to understand the broader phenomenon

840
00:32:31,310 --> 00:32:28,620
absolutely I I couldn't agree with you

841
00:32:35,630 --> 00:32:31,320
more the fact that we alone can even

842
00:32:38,389 --> 00:32:35,640
begin to guess size distance

843
00:32:41,330 --> 00:32:38,399
um possibly even atmospheric conditions

844
00:32:43,430 --> 00:32:41,340
uh that's astounding that that we're

845
00:32:45,470 --> 00:32:43,440
able to do that and that people like you

846
00:32:46,190 --> 00:32:45,480
and Chris are are looking into these

847
00:32:47,870 --> 00:32:46,200
things

848
00:32:49,610 --> 00:32:47,880
um now

849
00:32:52,010 --> 00:32:49,620
here's here's something I want to bring

850
00:32:52,909 --> 00:32:52,020
to you on the skeptic side of Micah

851
00:32:55,070 --> 00:32:52,919
Hanks

852
00:32:56,750 --> 00:32:55,080
um and again this is just a story so we

853
00:32:58,730 --> 00:32:56,760
have to take that for what it's worth

854
00:33:01,430 --> 00:32:58,740
but um I was doing a little digging

855
00:33:04,370 --> 00:33:01,440
before we got on here and I found this

856
00:33:06,409 --> 00:33:04,380
really interesting story from uh 1211

857
00:33:08,510 --> 00:33:06,419
A.D

858
00:33:10,970 --> 00:33:08,520
um and it was brought to us by an

859
00:33:12,289 --> 00:33:10,980
English chronicler of historical events

860
00:33:13,669 --> 00:33:12,299
and I just want to read this to you

861
00:33:14,690 --> 00:33:13,679
quick if you don't mind Micah yeah

862
00:33:17,149 --> 00:33:14,700
please

863
00:33:19,610 --> 00:33:17,159
um okay quote there happened in the

864
00:33:22,130 --> 00:33:19,620
borough of cleora one Sunday while the

865
00:33:23,870 --> 00:33:22,140
people were at mass of Marvel in this

866
00:33:26,450 --> 00:33:23,880
town is a church dedicated to Saint

867
00:33:29,149 --> 00:33:26,460
kinaris it befell that an anchor was

868
00:33:30,950 --> 00:33:29,159
dropped from the sky with a rope

869
00:33:33,169 --> 00:33:30,960
attached to it and one of the flukes

870
00:33:35,690 --> 00:33:33,179
caught in the arch above the church door

871
00:33:38,269 --> 00:33:35,700
the people rushed out of the church and

872
00:33:40,909 --> 00:33:38,279
saw in the sky a ship with men on board

873
00:33:43,130 --> 00:33:40,919
floating before the anchor cable and

874
00:33:46,009 --> 00:33:43,140
they saw a man leap overboard and jump

875
00:33:48,409 --> 00:33:46,019
down to the Anchor as if to release it

876
00:33:49,970 --> 00:33:48,419
he looked at it as if he were swimming

877
00:33:52,310 --> 00:33:49,980
in water

878
00:33:54,409 --> 00:33:52,320
for it might kill him

879
00:33:56,570 --> 00:33:54,419
um excuse me he looked at it as if he

880
00:33:58,669 --> 00:33:56,580
were swimming in water the folk rushed

881
00:34:00,830 --> 00:33:58,679
up and tried to seize him but the bishop

882
00:34:03,289 --> 00:34:00,840
forbade the people to hold the man for

883
00:34:05,090 --> 00:34:03,299
it might kill him the man was freed and

884
00:34:07,130 --> 00:34:05,100
hurried up into the ship where the crew

885
00:34:09,589 --> 00:34:07,140
cut the rope and the ship sailed out of

886
00:34:12,290 --> 00:34:09,599
sight but the anchor is in the church

887
00:34:14,210 --> 00:34:12,300
and has been there ever since as a

888
00:34:18,109 --> 00:34:14,220
testimony now first of all I want to

889
00:34:20,629 --> 00:34:18,119
find that anchor uh but second of all

890
00:34:23,930 --> 00:34:20,639
we have lights in the sky we have

891
00:34:25,550 --> 00:34:23,940
peridolia we have interpretation of uh

892
00:34:26,810 --> 00:34:25,560
someone maybe from a religious

893
00:34:28,550 --> 00:34:26,820
standpoint

894
00:34:32,149 --> 00:34:28,560
um but when it comes to something like

895
00:34:36,230 --> 00:34:32,159
this where we have a a physical

896
00:34:39,829 --> 00:34:36,240
craft or vessel in the sky and some sort

897
00:34:42,230 --> 00:34:39,839
of being coming out of it um where does

898
00:34:44,810 --> 00:34:42,240
this lay in terms of

899
00:34:48,530 --> 00:34:44,820
um interpretation I mean this is such a

900
00:34:49,970 --> 00:34:48,540
literal thing but again it is just a

901
00:34:51,889 --> 00:34:49,980
story so yeah what would you make of

902
00:34:53,930 --> 00:34:51,899
something like this I'm glad you asked

903
00:34:55,369 --> 00:34:53,940
about that one that's a an all-time

904
00:34:58,190 --> 00:34:55,379
favorite of mine Ryan

905
00:35:00,950 --> 00:34:58,200
um what's interesting about that uh

906
00:35:03,170 --> 00:35:00,960
encounter that that that Legend uh if

907
00:35:07,970 --> 00:35:03,180
you will is that that's not the only

908
00:35:10,609 --> 00:35:07,980
account of that essentially exactly you

909
00:35:12,109 --> 00:35:10,619
know the same scenario there are

910
00:35:13,910 --> 00:35:12,119
numerous accounts one of the earliest I

911
00:35:16,130 --> 00:35:13,920
think that I found actually was from a

912
00:35:17,390 --> 00:35:16,140
Norwegian document which was called The

913
00:35:19,730 --> 00:35:17,400
King's mirror

914
00:35:21,410 --> 00:35:19,740
the king's mirror is fascinating I mean

915
00:35:22,550 --> 00:35:21,420
I've written articles uh actually for

916
00:35:24,589 --> 00:35:22,560
our Pals Ben and Aaron over at

917
00:35:26,210 --> 00:35:24,599
Mysterious Universe about the king's

918
00:35:28,910 --> 00:35:26,220
mirror over the years and I I've

919
00:35:30,650 --> 00:35:28,920
referred to it as medieval fortiano at

920
00:35:32,450 --> 00:35:30,660
its finest and one of the reasons why is

921
00:35:33,890 --> 00:35:32,460
because in the king's mirror you've got

922
00:35:35,510 --> 00:35:33,900
the you know again one of the classic

923
00:35:37,849 --> 00:35:35,520
accounts of the Kraken which it doesn't

924
00:35:40,250 --> 00:35:37,859
describe as anything in a squid-like

925
00:35:42,290 --> 00:35:40,260
although most modern Scholars you know

926
00:35:45,050 --> 00:35:42,300
would contend and I would I wouldn't

927
00:35:47,150 --> 00:35:45,060
disagree that again many of the early

928
00:35:49,250 --> 00:35:47,160
accounts of what we recognize as the

929
00:35:50,930 --> 00:35:49,260
Kraken actually were

930
00:35:52,609 --> 00:35:50,940
um you know references to things like

931
00:35:55,190 --> 00:35:52,619
the giant squid which we now know to

932
00:35:57,770 --> 00:35:55,200
exist are katuthus you know which I've

933
00:36:00,470 --> 00:35:57,780
been fascinated with since I was a child

934
00:36:02,510 --> 00:36:00,480
um in the in the the wonders of Ireland

935
00:36:04,130 --> 00:36:02,520
there's a section in the king's mirror

936
00:36:05,569 --> 00:36:04,140
that discusses Ireland and things that

937
00:36:09,050 --> 00:36:05,579
have been discovered there and it gives

938
00:36:11,569 --> 00:36:09,060
an account of a hairy wild man

939
00:36:12,829 --> 00:36:11,579
but it's a very unique account

940
00:36:13,970 --> 00:36:12,839
um which I won't go into details about

941
00:36:15,050 --> 00:36:13,980
right now because I want to come back to

942
00:36:16,310 --> 00:36:15,060
what you're talking about they're the

943
00:36:18,410 --> 00:36:16,320
same account that you just gave us

944
00:36:19,609 --> 00:36:18,420
appears also a version of it in the

945
00:36:22,010 --> 00:36:19,619
king's mirror

946
00:36:24,650 --> 00:36:22,020
and there are other versions of it that

947
00:36:27,410 --> 00:36:24,660
appear elsewhere too and um when I

948
00:36:29,030 --> 00:36:27,420
actually I went to Leeds a number of

949
00:36:30,950 --> 00:36:29,040
years ago and actually gave a lecture

950
00:36:33,170 --> 00:36:30,960
there at an exopolitics conference where

951
00:36:37,490 --> 00:36:33,180
I I talked about that case and some of

952
00:36:40,370 --> 00:36:37,500
the similar traditions of not only

953
00:36:43,370 --> 00:36:40,380
um ships sailing through the sky

954
00:36:46,069 --> 00:36:43,380
but also this broader idea of

955
00:36:48,410 --> 00:36:46,079
you know storm Wizards I always liked

956
00:36:50,210 --> 00:36:48,420
that you know and this very much you

957
00:36:52,490 --> 00:36:50,220
know plays into that idea the belief in

958
00:36:56,270 --> 00:36:52,500
the idea as debunked by the bishop

959
00:36:58,010 --> 00:36:56,280
agabard of Leon uh back in the 800s of a

960
00:36:59,569 --> 00:36:58,020
Sky Realm from which people like this

961
00:37:01,310 --> 00:36:59,579
came which they had a name for they

962
00:37:02,810 --> 00:37:01,320
called it magnonia

963
00:37:04,490 --> 00:37:02,820
and yeah

964
00:37:07,069 --> 00:37:04,500
there he would go

965
00:37:08,150 --> 00:37:07,079
um these accounts of the of the uh the

966
00:37:09,470 --> 00:37:08,160
ship sailing through the sky are

967
00:37:11,270 --> 00:37:09,480
interesting to me but the fact that that

968
00:37:13,970 --> 00:37:11,280
story is retold and retold in so many

969
00:37:16,730 --> 00:37:13,980
different ancient texts

970
00:37:19,609 --> 00:37:16,740
um suggests to me that it quite

971
00:37:21,710 --> 00:37:19,619
obviously didn't probably happen

972
00:37:23,650 --> 00:37:21,720
um some of the variants described that

973
00:37:26,150 --> 00:37:23,660
the anchor was preserved in the church

974
00:37:27,770 --> 00:37:26,160
some say that it was you know left in

975
00:37:30,050 --> 00:37:27,780
the graveyard because it got hung on a

976
00:37:32,569 --> 00:37:30,060
on a actual gravestone

977
00:37:35,450 --> 00:37:32,579
some of the versions tell that uh the

978
00:37:37,550 --> 00:37:35,460
people uh rushed out and tried to grab

979
00:37:39,829 --> 00:37:37,560
the man and hold him but either a bishop

980
00:37:42,410 --> 00:37:39,839
or a priest or whomever you know the

981
00:37:44,510 --> 00:37:42,420
holy man in the version of the story may

982
00:37:46,130 --> 00:37:44,520
be given the narrative in question he

983
00:37:47,870 --> 00:37:46,140
will stop them and and you know tell

984
00:37:49,430 --> 00:37:47,880
them let him go and then he is able to

985
00:37:50,810 --> 00:37:49,440
escape so that he can go back up to his

986
00:37:52,490 --> 00:37:50,820
ship because presumably he can't breathe

987
00:37:54,410 --> 00:37:52,500
air when he's off of his ship I mean

988
00:37:56,630 --> 00:37:54,420
again there are all these very colorful

989
00:37:58,550 --> 00:37:56,640
interpretations what's also interesting

990
00:38:00,770 --> 00:37:58,560
though about that Legend is

991
00:38:02,089 --> 00:38:00,780
their conception of people who pass

992
00:38:03,470 --> 00:38:02,099
through the sky but what are they in

993
00:38:05,390 --> 00:38:03,480
they're not in some sort of a marvelous

994
00:38:07,609 --> 00:38:05,400
technological contrivance they're in a

995
00:38:10,670 --> 00:38:07,619
ship they're in a sailing ship

996
00:38:14,349 --> 00:38:10,680
and that you might say has some

997
00:38:17,450 --> 00:38:14,359
similarities to another very classic

998
00:38:19,490 --> 00:38:17,460
pre-uffology flap actually what uh many

999
00:38:24,069 --> 00:38:19,500
have actually acknowledged as the first

1000
00:38:27,230 --> 00:38:24,079
uh UFO wave Over America which was the

1001
00:38:30,950 --> 00:38:27,240
1896-1897 Airship wave

1002
00:38:34,370 --> 00:38:30,960
um Lauren gross uh highly underrated UFO

1003
00:38:36,829 --> 00:38:34,380
historical researcher um who has uh he

1004
00:38:38,990 --> 00:38:36,839
actually self-published a number of of

1005
00:38:40,910 --> 00:38:39,000
chronologies of UFO events that occurred

1006
00:38:42,230 --> 00:38:40,920
up through about the time of Betty and

1007
00:38:46,010 --> 00:38:42,240
Barney Hill

1008
00:38:47,990 --> 00:38:46,020
he saw that event as being so shifting

1009
00:38:49,609 --> 00:38:48,000
in terms of the UFO phenomenon because

1010
00:38:53,690 --> 00:38:49,619
it introduced all these elements that

1011
00:38:55,970 --> 00:38:53,700
were so uh unique to and also absent

1012
00:38:57,829 --> 00:38:55,980
from ufology prior to that point that

1013
00:38:59,450 --> 00:38:57,839
you know it was just a game changer for

1014
00:39:02,150 --> 00:38:59,460
him and for various reasons he kind of

1015
00:39:04,550 --> 00:39:02,160
got out of the UFO historical habit but

1016
00:39:06,470 --> 00:39:04,560
up until about that Tom gross published

1017
00:39:08,569 --> 00:39:06,480
these remarkable

1018
00:39:10,609 --> 00:39:08,579
um self-published uh you know histories

1019
00:39:12,530 --> 00:39:10,619
of the UFO phenomenon and he gave a very

1020
00:39:14,089 --> 00:39:12,540
authoritative account which I believe

1021
00:39:16,310 --> 00:39:14,099
the center for UFO studies is made

1022
00:39:18,130 --> 00:39:16,320
available at their website is a PDF that

1023
00:39:22,250 --> 00:39:18,140
anyone can download but he looks at the

1024
00:39:25,550 --> 00:39:22,260
1896-97 Airship wave now again I would

1025
00:39:27,890 --> 00:39:25,560
say that the the the the 19 the 1890s

1026
00:39:29,870 --> 00:39:27,900
Airship thing would just be like what

1027
00:39:31,310 --> 00:39:29,880
you're describing there uh you know the

1028
00:39:34,609 --> 00:39:31,320
ships in the sky and everything this is

1029
00:39:36,890 --> 00:39:34,619
just another Legend but there are some

1030
00:39:39,230 --> 00:39:36,900
very unusual reports from that period

1031
00:39:41,089 --> 00:39:39,240
and being an old newspaper Hound I love

1032
00:39:43,609 --> 00:39:41,099
to get on newspapers.com and try and dig

1033
00:39:45,430 --> 00:39:43,619
up as well as the Library of Congress

1034
00:39:47,770 --> 00:39:45,440
chronicling America

1035
00:39:51,050 --> 00:39:47,780
website and try and dig up information

1036
00:39:53,450 --> 00:39:51,060
about these uh you know this particular

1037
00:39:56,329 --> 00:39:53,460
UFO wave and also previous logical

1038
00:39:58,130 --> 00:39:56,339
reports from prior to 1947. some of the

1039
00:40:00,470 --> 00:39:58,140
accounts that were given were quite

1040
00:40:02,630 --> 00:40:00,480
interesting during the Airship wave and

1041
00:40:04,970 --> 00:40:02,640
it does cause me to wonder

1042
00:40:07,130 --> 00:40:04,980
one of a few things could some of the

1043
00:40:09,050 --> 00:40:07,140
actual sightings of airships have

1044
00:40:11,089 --> 00:40:09,060
involved real physical tangible objects

1045
00:40:12,770 --> 00:40:11,099
one for instance citing in the very

1046
00:40:14,390 --> 00:40:12,780
early days of the flap actually involved

1047
00:40:16,490 --> 00:40:14,400
nothing similar to an Airship but it was

1048
00:40:17,690 --> 00:40:16,500
an account from south of Sacramento

1049
00:40:20,030 --> 00:40:17,700
where a man

1050
00:40:21,950 --> 00:40:20,040
said that a a fella had been walking by

1051
00:40:23,569 --> 00:40:21,960
and had asked for a glass of water from

1052
00:40:24,950 --> 00:40:23,579
his water pump just you know kind of a

1053
00:40:26,750 --> 00:40:24,960
town vagrant or something along those

1054
00:40:27,829 --> 00:40:26,760
lines but that he looks up and out of

1055
00:40:29,750 --> 00:40:27,839
the corner of his eye sees something

1056
00:40:31,609 --> 00:40:29,760
passing through the sky

1057
00:40:32,870 --> 00:40:31,619
and he says that the man who had asked

1058
00:40:34,310 --> 00:40:32,880
for the water saw it too and they both

1059
00:40:36,349 --> 00:40:34,320
observed something that was like a

1060
00:40:38,150 --> 00:40:36,359
square roughly the cut the color of

1061
00:40:40,670 --> 00:40:38,160
parchment

1062
00:40:42,290 --> 00:40:40,680
passing through the sky

1063
00:40:44,329 --> 00:40:42,300
uh heading in the direction of

1064
00:40:45,589 --> 00:40:44,339
Sacramento but in broad daylight I mean

1065
00:40:47,210 --> 00:40:45,599
they got a very good look at this now it

1066
00:40:49,310 --> 00:40:47,220
didn't sound like an Airship it didn't

1067
00:40:50,870 --> 00:40:49,320
sound like you know anything else that

1068
00:40:52,490 --> 00:40:50,880
was being described in the newspapers at

1069
00:40:54,589 --> 00:40:52,500
that time but this man said very matter

1070
00:40:57,470 --> 00:40:54,599
of factly there was some weird

1071
00:41:00,470 --> 00:40:57,480
craft or object flying through the sky

1072
00:41:02,030 --> 00:41:00,480
that he had observed so some of those

1073
00:41:04,910 --> 00:41:02,040
reports from around that time yet again

1074
00:41:07,970 --> 00:41:04,920
were they fell outside the whole Airship

1075
00:41:10,310 --> 00:41:07,980
you know mythology and I say mythology

1076
00:41:12,650 --> 00:41:10,320
not to try and dismiss it and say this

1077
00:41:14,329 --> 00:41:12,660
is all nonsense I mean what happens when

1078
00:41:16,730 --> 00:41:14,339
you have people that start seeing

1079
00:41:18,770 --> 00:41:16,740
strange things in the sky and then it

1080
00:41:20,329 --> 00:41:18,780
gets reported in the newspapers and

1081
00:41:23,030 --> 00:41:20,339
you've got everyone including you know

1082
00:41:25,010 --> 00:41:23,040
mayor sutro's you know staff and and

1083
00:41:26,510 --> 00:41:25,020
people in in town who have been among

1084
00:41:28,490 --> 00:41:26,520
the members I think one of the I think

1085
00:41:30,650 --> 00:41:28,500
the town Constable had also seen it you

1086
00:41:33,050 --> 00:41:30,660
know policemen business owners people

1087
00:41:35,690 --> 00:41:33,060
had all said oh yes we saw the great

1088
00:41:37,069 --> 00:41:35,700
Airship as it passed over Sacramento we

1089
00:41:39,349 --> 00:41:37,079
observed it you know and the

1090
00:41:41,329 --> 00:41:39,359
descriptions that were given very vague

1091
00:41:42,829 --> 00:41:41,339
mostly just a bright light as it was

1092
00:41:44,150 --> 00:41:42,839
passing kind of maybe drifting back and

1093
00:41:46,849 --> 00:41:44,160
forth as though the wind was blowing it

1094
00:41:48,829 --> 00:41:46,859
but something moving through the air

1095
00:41:50,450 --> 00:41:48,839
again it leaves a lot to the imagination

1096
00:41:52,130 --> 00:41:50,460
but I have little doubt that based on

1097
00:41:53,990 --> 00:41:52,140
some of those news reports people were

1098
00:41:55,910 --> 00:41:54,000
seeing something

1099
00:41:58,250 --> 00:41:55,920
and the nighttime reports essentially

1100
00:41:59,690 --> 00:41:58,260
described it as a like they said it

1101
00:42:01,370 --> 00:41:59,700
looked like an ArcLight

1102
00:42:03,050 --> 00:42:01,380
all right

1103
00:42:05,089 --> 00:42:03,060
um imagine like a great but like bulb

1104
00:42:06,710 --> 00:42:05,099
with with the with the filament there in

1105
00:42:08,030 --> 00:42:06,720
the center the light separately brightly

1106
00:42:09,829 --> 00:42:08,040
like an all-timey light bulb something

1107
00:42:11,870 --> 00:42:09,839
akin to that

1108
00:42:14,150 --> 00:42:11,880
um so I'm kind of intrigued by some of

1109
00:42:16,849 --> 00:42:14,160
those reports but again I wonder if if

1110
00:42:19,069 --> 00:42:16,859
people were actually seeing something do

1111
00:42:21,170 --> 00:42:19,079
they project onto that this idea of the

1112
00:42:23,450 --> 00:42:21,180
sort of sailing vessel that even as

1113
00:42:25,670 --> 00:42:23,460
recently as the 1890s most people would

1114
00:42:26,870 --> 00:42:25,680
have been familiar with but again they

1115
00:42:28,609 --> 00:42:26,880
didn't describe a ship they were saying

1116
00:42:30,710 --> 00:42:28,619
an Airship they were seeing propellers

1117
00:42:32,990 --> 00:42:30,720
and things along those lines all of this

1118
00:42:36,109 --> 00:42:33,000
in anticipation of the actual

1119
00:42:39,170 --> 00:42:36,119
development of uh dirigibles and

1120
00:42:40,910 --> 00:42:39,180
airships as we know them today so you

1121
00:42:42,589 --> 00:42:40,920
know again in in the pre ufological

1122
00:42:44,270 --> 00:42:42,599
context I don't know what to make of

1123
00:42:45,650 --> 00:42:44,280
those cases I think that there may be

1124
00:42:48,109 --> 00:42:45,660
something to it I do think though that

1125
00:42:50,150 --> 00:42:48,119
the the sky ships from the Middle Ages

1126
00:42:53,210 --> 00:42:50,160
and the anchor that was dropped

1127
00:42:55,910 --> 00:42:53,220
maybe more in the realm of Legend in

1128
00:42:57,950 --> 00:42:55,920
that case yeah I I would have to agree

1129
00:42:59,809 --> 00:42:57,960
with you um just hearing you say that

1130
00:43:01,849 --> 00:42:59,819
you have heard this story different

1131
00:43:05,630 --> 00:43:01,859
iterations throughout time

1132
00:43:07,730 --> 00:43:05,640
um shows how much these things can

1133
00:43:09,710 --> 00:43:07,740
um make it to a different culture and

1134
00:43:11,690 --> 00:43:09,720
then take on a whole new lens

1135
00:43:14,390 --> 00:43:11,700
um that's why stories are so powerful I

1136
00:43:16,309 --> 00:43:14,400
feel they're so malleable and um that's

1137
00:43:18,230 --> 00:43:16,319
good and bad when it comes to UFO

1138
00:43:20,390 --> 00:43:18,240
research it's a little challenging

1139
00:43:22,609 --> 00:43:20,400
because we're trying to narrow in on a

1140
00:43:24,770 --> 00:43:22,619
physical craft being seen

1141
00:43:27,050 --> 00:43:24,780
um but yeah I want to move back I guess

1142
00:43:29,809 --> 00:43:27,060
back to Medieval Times that I took us

1143
00:43:31,430 --> 00:43:29,819
out of there briefly but um you also

1144
00:43:34,550 --> 00:43:31,440
look a lot into

1145
00:43:38,930 --> 00:43:34,560
um classic art now a lot of us who think

1146
00:43:41,930 --> 00:43:38,940
of Middle Ages or Ancient Aliens or um

1147
00:43:45,290 --> 00:43:41,940
you know the idea of UFOs being seen uh

1148
00:43:48,170 --> 00:43:45,300
during BC times or early A.D times

1149
00:43:51,650 --> 00:43:48,180
um we see these images of you know the

1150
00:43:55,790 --> 00:43:51,660
um Mary with Jesus with a UFO in the

1151
00:43:58,309 --> 00:43:55,800
background or um these uh what what have

1152
00:44:00,230 --> 00:43:58,319
you hieroglyphics on the pyramids of men

1153
00:44:03,050 --> 00:44:00,240
in spacesuits I mean this is going

1154
00:44:05,630 --> 00:44:03,060
really all over the place but what about

1155
00:44:08,210 --> 00:44:05,640
when it comes to gothic art yeah I know

1156
00:44:10,010 --> 00:44:08,220
we might as well let's just do it man

1157
00:44:12,550 --> 00:44:10,020
um when it comes to Art what do you make

1158
00:44:16,250 --> 00:44:12,560
of these interpretations of um

1159
00:44:18,589 --> 00:44:16,260
literal like saucers being painted into

1160
00:44:20,569 --> 00:44:18,599
these portraits I mean it's it's a sound

1161
00:44:22,250 --> 00:44:20,579
game to me this isn't a photo that

1162
00:44:24,230 --> 00:44:22,260
caught something and we looked at it

1163
00:44:26,150 --> 00:44:24,240
later on like this took hours for

1164
00:44:28,250 --> 00:44:26,160
someone to paint so they had to have

1165
00:44:30,530 --> 00:44:28,260
been seeing that object there possibly

1166
00:44:32,329 --> 00:44:30,540
Maybe not maybe not that's one

1167
00:44:35,329 --> 00:44:32,339
interpretation so the interesting thing

1168
00:44:39,589 --> 00:44:35,339
about art is uh when it relates to the

1169
00:44:41,030 --> 00:44:39,599
idea of UFOs appearing in classical art

1170
00:44:42,950 --> 00:44:41,040
um admittedly

1171
00:44:44,930 --> 00:44:42,960
some of the objects that appear in the

1172
00:44:46,609 --> 00:44:44,940
paintings are convincing enough of

1173
00:44:48,109 --> 00:44:46,619
course that it had caused me to have to

1174
00:44:50,569 --> 00:44:48,119
say look

1175
00:44:51,650 --> 00:44:50,579
I mean are these things flying saucers I

1176
00:44:53,750 --> 00:44:51,660
mean that's what these things really

1177
00:44:54,530 --> 00:44:53,760
look like

1178
00:44:56,150 --> 00:44:54,540
um

1179
00:44:59,150 --> 00:44:56,160
but the problem is is that when you look

1180
00:45:00,829 --> 00:44:59,160
at certain uh Renaissance period

1181
00:45:03,770 --> 00:45:00,839
paintings especially

1182
00:45:05,390 --> 00:45:03,780
that depict actual scenes from the life

1183
00:45:07,250 --> 00:45:05,400
of the Savior for instance you know I

1184
00:45:09,170 --> 00:45:07,260
mean if we're seeing actual uh

1185
00:45:10,190 --> 00:45:09,180
representations of the Life of Christ or

1186
00:45:12,650 --> 00:45:10,200
Mary

1187
00:45:14,510 --> 00:45:12,660
often what we have is we have a

1188
00:45:17,450 --> 00:45:14,520
representation on a canvas of a

1189
00:45:20,930 --> 00:45:17,460
narrative from an actual text and what

1190
00:45:22,910 --> 00:45:20,940
is often left out in the again not to

1191
00:45:24,349 --> 00:45:22,920
present it as a pejorative but again in

1192
00:45:26,210 --> 00:45:24,359
the ancient astronaut interpretation

1193
00:45:27,309 --> 00:45:26,220
what is often left out is they look at a

1194
00:46:00,710 --> 00:45:27,319
a

1195
00:46:02,690 --> 00:46:00,720
clouds opening up

1196
00:46:04,250 --> 00:46:02,700
and light shooting down from an opening

1197
00:46:06,290 --> 00:46:04,260
in the cloud sometimes an angel is

1198
00:46:07,309 --> 00:46:06,300
actually visible in this opening in the

1199
00:46:10,250 --> 00:46:07,319
cloud

1200
00:46:12,109 --> 00:46:10,260
and you know again that seems to be the

1201
00:46:13,849 --> 00:46:12,119
issue I think that everyone wants

1202
00:46:15,950 --> 00:46:13,859
everyone has an idea of you know what

1203
00:46:18,950 --> 00:46:15,960
they're after whether it's proving UFOs

1204
00:46:20,569 --> 00:46:18,960
maybe disproving UFOs disproving any

1205
00:46:23,150 --> 00:46:20,579
kind of extraordinary claim you know or

1206
00:46:24,050 --> 00:46:23,160
endorsing one unfortunately what I do

1207
00:46:25,730 --> 00:46:24,060
find

1208
00:46:29,450 --> 00:46:25,740
is that

1209
00:46:32,270 --> 00:46:29,460
um often Believers and Skeptics uh tend

1210
00:46:34,010 --> 00:46:32,280
to cherry pick in this case when we see

1211
00:46:36,650 --> 00:46:34,020
people looking at paintings and saying

1212
00:46:38,930 --> 00:46:36,660
that's a flying saucer man come on you

1213
00:46:41,210 --> 00:46:38,940
know Raphael was paying a flying saucer

1214
00:46:44,030 --> 00:46:41,220
if we look at other paintings

1215
00:46:46,370 --> 00:46:44,040
you have to acknowledge that not all the

1216
00:46:47,750 --> 00:46:46,380
artists were painting flying saucers and

1217
00:46:50,510 --> 00:46:47,760
then we look back at the Flying Saucer

1218
00:46:52,550 --> 00:46:50,520
in this one and we realize again what we

1219
00:46:54,890 --> 00:46:52,560
may actually be observing is his

1220
00:46:57,589 --> 00:46:54,900
interpretation of a hole in the sky the

1221
00:47:00,109 --> 00:46:57,599
light shooting down but we see a disc

1222
00:47:01,849 --> 00:47:00,119
with a ray or a you know light being

1223
00:47:03,349 --> 00:47:01,859
produced by it or something along those

1224
00:47:04,970 --> 00:47:03,359
lines

1225
00:47:07,609 --> 00:47:04,980
um similar to this is the idea of cave

1226
00:47:09,890 --> 00:47:07,619
art you know my love for archeology and

1227
00:47:12,650 --> 00:47:09,900
you know in a lot of uh for instance I

1228
00:47:16,130 --> 00:47:12,660
think tasili cave and is it Algeria I

1229
00:47:18,530 --> 00:47:16,140
believe where it's uh scene uh we see uh

1230
00:47:20,569 --> 00:47:18,540
this very interesting many different in

1231
00:47:23,450 --> 00:47:20,579
you know representations there and

1232
00:47:24,589 --> 00:47:23,460
elsewhere of you know what we could only

1233
00:47:26,870 --> 00:47:24,599
call

1234
00:47:28,910 --> 00:47:26,880
men in space suits you know what men

1235
00:47:30,829 --> 00:47:28,920
appear to have you know Globes you know

1236
00:47:32,089 --> 00:47:30,839
of of some kind almost like a fishbowl

1237
00:47:33,950 --> 00:47:32,099
around their head this reminds us of

1238
00:47:35,030 --> 00:47:33,960
some sort of helmet some sort of you

1239
00:47:38,630 --> 00:47:35,040
know

1240
00:47:41,569 --> 00:47:38,640
spacesuit perhaps

1241
00:47:43,130 --> 00:47:41,579
and the problem is when we really look

1242
00:47:45,829 --> 00:47:43,140
at that art when we really look at that

1243
00:47:47,150 --> 00:47:45,839
cave art we have to kind of ask

1244
00:47:50,210 --> 00:47:47,160
ourselves

1245
00:47:51,530 --> 00:47:50,220
as uh detailed as this cave art is is it

1246
00:47:53,510 --> 00:47:51,540
really detailed enough that we can with

1247
00:47:56,150 --> 00:47:53,520
certainty say that is a guy in a space

1248
00:47:57,470 --> 00:47:56,160
suit furthermore how certain are we that

1249
00:47:58,970 --> 00:47:57,480
aliens are going to show up wearing

1250
00:48:00,890 --> 00:47:58,980
space suits that look like what our

1251
00:48:03,109 --> 00:48:00,900
astronauts would wear when they went to

1252
00:48:05,809 --> 00:48:03,119
the moon in the 1960s ask yourself this

1253
00:48:08,569 --> 00:48:05,819
in the modern reports and accounts of

1254
00:48:10,250 --> 00:48:08,579
abductions or contacts it's not to say

1255
00:48:12,950 --> 00:48:10,260
that they don't ever occur but how often

1256
00:48:15,230 --> 00:48:12,960
do you hear about aliens wearing retro

1257
00:48:17,750 --> 00:48:15,240
looking you know space suits like you

1258
00:48:19,910 --> 00:48:17,760
know Apollo aranasa stuff

1259
00:48:21,710 --> 00:48:19,920
quite evidently when the books about

1260
00:48:23,809 --> 00:48:21,720
ancient astronauts began to really

1261
00:48:25,130 --> 00:48:23,819
become popular in the 60s and 70s what

1262
00:48:26,750 --> 00:48:25,140
had been happening with the U.S space

1263
00:48:29,210 --> 00:48:26,760
program at that time what kind of

1264
00:48:31,550 --> 00:48:29,220
spacesuits were being worn you know you

1265
00:48:33,170 --> 00:48:31,560
have to realize that that is an element

1266
00:48:35,270 --> 00:48:33,180
of this and again it's not to disparage

1267
00:48:36,890 --> 00:48:35,280
the idea that uh there could have been

1268
00:48:40,490 --> 00:48:36,900
visitation to Earth in ancient times

1269
00:48:42,950 --> 00:48:40,500
because despite all of my skepticism

1270
00:48:45,290 --> 00:48:42,960
you know Ryan I spoke to a an arch

1271
00:48:47,089 --> 00:48:45,300
skeptic physicist at one of the regional

1272
00:48:48,530 --> 00:48:47,099
universities here actually he's an

1273
00:48:49,970 --> 00:48:48,540
astronomer

1274
00:48:52,130 --> 00:48:49,980
um who I don't think he would mind me

1275
00:48:53,569 --> 00:48:52,140
naming him either Dr Daniel Caton he

1276
00:48:55,910 --> 00:48:53,579
used to write a very skeptically

1277
00:48:57,109 --> 00:48:55,920
inclined uh column for the Charlotte

1278
00:48:59,150 --> 00:48:57,119
Observer

1279
00:49:01,069 --> 00:48:59,160
I remember in a radio interview that we

1280
00:49:04,370 --> 00:49:01,079
did years ago um

1281
00:49:08,630 --> 00:49:04,380
Dr Caton who's very down on the idea of

1282
00:49:11,390 --> 00:49:08,640
you know UFOs in the modern context said

1283
00:49:13,370 --> 00:49:11,400
If Earth has ever been visited I think

1284
00:49:15,290 --> 00:49:13,380
it happened a long time ago

1285
00:49:16,490 --> 00:49:15,300
and I'm like what he says well but if

1286
00:49:18,650 --> 00:49:16,500
you think about it

1287
00:49:20,390 --> 00:49:18,660
you know the Earth in the billions of

1288
00:49:21,770 --> 00:49:20,400
years that this planet has existed you

1289
00:49:23,390 --> 00:49:21,780
know I mean humans remember Neil

1290
00:49:25,130 --> 00:49:23,400
deGrasse Tyson saying humans have been

1291
00:49:26,930 --> 00:49:25,140
here you see the tip of my pinky not

1292
00:49:29,990 --> 00:49:26,940
even that long

1293
00:49:31,130 --> 00:49:30,000
well in all of that time before we got

1294
00:49:32,569 --> 00:49:31,140
here

1295
00:49:34,970 --> 00:49:32,579
and in all of that time that

1296
00:49:37,130 --> 00:49:34,980
civilizations could have come and gone

1297
00:49:39,170 --> 00:49:37,140
and utilize technology that could help

1298
00:49:41,390 --> 00:49:39,180
them Traverse the Stars

1299
00:49:43,069 --> 00:49:41,400
the likelihood actually if we're

1300
00:49:45,170 --> 00:49:43,079
speaking in terms of probability would

1301
00:49:46,370 --> 00:49:45,180
be that in that period before us coming

1302
00:49:48,589 --> 00:49:46,380
along

1303
00:49:51,349 --> 00:49:48,599
that would have been the period that

1304
00:49:52,790 --> 00:49:51,359
there's so much more time for Earth to

1305
00:49:55,370 --> 00:49:52,800
have been visited and in likelihood

1306
00:49:57,470 --> 00:49:55,380
that's actually uh when Earth would have

1307
00:49:59,990 --> 00:49:57,480
been visited rather than when we're here

1308
00:50:00,849 --> 00:50:00,000
right now so again we we start to see

1309
00:50:03,410 --> 00:50:00,859
that there's this sort of

1310
00:50:05,210 --> 00:50:03,420
anthropocentrism well if UFOs are coming

1311
00:50:06,710 --> 00:50:05,220
to Earth if Earth you know space fares

1312
00:50:09,650 --> 00:50:06,720
would have come here it's got to be

1313
00:50:11,750 --> 00:50:09,660
while we're here right not necessarily I

1314
00:50:14,390 --> 00:50:11,760
mean again if a civilization billions of

1315
00:50:16,370 --> 00:50:14,400
years ago existed and then a supernova

1316
00:50:18,890 --> 00:50:16,380
destroys their planet and all memory of

1317
00:50:20,329 --> 00:50:18,900
them is lost from the universe what's to

1318
00:50:22,190 --> 00:50:20,339
say that they didn't rise to a position

1319
00:50:24,170 --> 00:50:22,200
to a point of technological

1320
00:50:26,990 --> 00:50:24,180
sophistication that brought them to a

1321
00:50:28,490 --> 00:50:27,000
place like here at some point long ago

1322
00:50:30,170 --> 00:50:28,500
you know so again there are some

1323
00:50:32,089 --> 00:50:30,180
Skeptics who would actually contend that

1324
00:50:34,430 --> 00:50:32,099
if Earth has been visited it actually

1325
00:50:36,890 --> 00:50:34,440
would have occurred a long time ago

1326
00:50:38,270 --> 00:50:36,900
which you know it's it's a fair point

1327
00:50:40,790 --> 00:50:38,280
um but one more point that I'd like to

1328
00:50:43,130 --> 00:50:40,800
raise in relation to Ancient Art

1329
00:50:44,750 --> 00:50:43,140
about this again I mentioned uh the

1330
00:50:47,450 --> 00:50:44,760
discussion with David Halperin recently

1331
00:50:49,430 --> 00:50:47,460
uh which on the Micah Hanks program my

1332
00:50:50,630 --> 00:50:49,440
podcast that is this week's episode and

1333
00:50:54,049 --> 00:50:50,640
so you can listen to the entire thing

1334
00:50:56,750 --> 00:50:54,059
there for free but he had had a

1335
00:50:58,309 --> 00:50:56,760
colleague bring to his attention uh the

1336
00:50:59,990 --> 00:50:58,319
fact that

1337
00:51:01,910 --> 00:51:00,000
um what is known as

1338
00:51:04,730 --> 00:51:01,920
um this is a a piece of art I believe

1339
00:51:06,530 --> 00:51:04,740
it's called The pre-dionnika Mask from

1340
00:51:08,750 --> 00:51:06,540
Kosovo

1341
00:51:10,309 --> 00:51:08,760
his colleague said you know that alien

1342
00:51:12,170 --> 00:51:10,319
that you showed a picture of in your

1343
00:51:14,690 --> 00:51:12,180
presentation the alien by the way in

1344
00:51:16,130 --> 00:51:14,700
question Ryan was the famous uh

1345
00:51:17,630 --> 00:51:16,140
depiction of a gray that appeared on the

1346
00:51:20,390 --> 00:51:17,640
original cover of Whitley strieber's

1347
00:51:21,950 --> 00:51:20,400
book communion yeah which is familiar

1348
00:51:23,930 --> 00:51:21,960
and I don't even call it a guilty

1349
00:51:27,049 --> 00:51:23,940
pleasure I've I've always enjoyed that

1350
00:51:28,370 --> 00:51:27,059
book and I think that it should be

1351
00:51:30,290 --> 00:51:28,380
essential reading for anybody who's

1352
00:51:32,630 --> 00:51:30,300
interested in studying modern ufology

1353
00:51:33,770 --> 00:51:32,640
whether or not you take all the the uh

1354
00:51:35,030 --> 00:51:33,780
you know the ideas and the claims

1355
00:51:37,970 --> 00:51:35,040
presented in it

1356
00:51:39,770 --> 00:51:37,980
um as being pure reality um the point I

1357
00:51:41,150 --> 00:51:39,780
think I would make about that which is a

1358
00:51:43,130 --> 00:51:41,160
topic for another conversation but I'm

1359
00:51:45,049 --> 00:51:43,140
not sure Whitley did and if you read

1360
00:51:46,670 --> 00:51:45,059
that book and he has pointed this out

1361
00:51:47,990 --> 00:51:46,680
himself he never said that they were

1362
00:51:49,790 --> 00:51:48,000
extraterrestrials that he was having

1363
00:51:51,589 --> 00:51:49,800
encounters with he said for instance

1364
00:51:54,230 --> 00:51:51,599
what if there were Time Travelers what

1365
00:51:56,390 --> 00:51:54,240
if they were our ancient ancestors

1366
00:51:58,010 --> 00:51:56,400
somehow communicating with us my

1367
00:51:59,630 --> 00:51:58,020
favorite idea that he presents in the

1368
00:52:01,549 --> 00:51:59,640
book was what if this is what evolution

1369
00:52:04,010 --> 00:52:01,559
looks like to us as it's happening

1370
00:52:07,730 --> 00:52:04,020
before our eyes incredibly Forward

1371
00:52:10,970 --> 00:52:07,740
Thinking I love that idea of aliens

1372
00:52:14,150 --> 00:52:10,980
being a either Evolution or let's be

1373
00:52:15,890 --> 00:52:14,160
honest the evolution of humanity

1374
00:52:18,170 --> 00:52:15,900
um are they Time Travelers coming back

1375
00:52:19,730 --> 00:52:18,180
to see how we once were I find that

1376
00:52:21,710 --> 00:52:19,740
fascinating I think you're right he

1377
00:52:23,630 --> 00:52:21,720
never once says alien he always calls

1378
00:52:25,609 --> 00:52:23,640
them visitors which could mean a

1379
00:52:27,710 --> 00:52:25,619
thousand different things so I'm glad

1380
00:52:29,150 --> 00:52:27,720
you brought that yeah he did speculate

1381
00:52:31,309 --> 00:52:29,160
about what he thought they might have

1382
00:52:33,470 --> 00:52:31,319
been but more in a poetic way and then

1383
00:52:35,930 --> 00:52:33,480
when he went on um Larry King you know

1384
00:52:38,150 --> 00:52:35,940
and they've got uh some uh who was it uh

1385
00:52:40,430 --> 00:52:38,160
I I can't recall who the the skeptic had

1386
00:52:42,710 --> 00:52:40,440
been at that time but

1387
00:52:44,569 --> 00:52:42,720
um during that live panel I remember uh

1388
00:52:46,250 --> 00:52:44,579
Whitley saying at one point

1389
00:52:48,710 --> 00:52:46,260
you know I never said that these were

1390
00:52:51,170 --> 00:52:48,720
extraterrestrials I he doesn't describe

1391
00:52:52,730 --> 00:52:51,180
ever being taken aboard a UFO he does he

1392
00:52:54,890 --> 00:52:52,740
does describe going into an environment

1393
00:52:56,809 --> 00:52:54,900
and he goes out into the woods he

1394
00:52:58,910 --> 00:52:56,819
describes some things that are somewhat

1395
00:53:00,650 --> 00:52:58,920
UFO like but he doesn't describe I saw

1396
00:53:03,829 --> 00:53:00,660
the saucer hovering outside my window

1397
00:53:06,950 --> 00:53:03,839
again that is something that very much

1398
00:53:09,290 --> 00:53:06,960
we could say the UFO Community eager to

1399
00:53:10,970 --> 00:53:09,300
find an answer to all of these reports

1400
00:53:12,890 --> 00:53:10,980
at that time they may have projected

1401
00:53:14,990 --> 00:53:12,900
their own desires onto Whitley's story

1402
00:53:16,849 --> 00:53:15,000
now coming back to the pre-dionicum mask

1403
00:53:19,010 --> 00:53:16,859
from Kosovo

1404
00:53:21,950 --> 00:53:19,020
this again this is a very skeptically

1405
00:53:23,870 --> 00:53:21,960
inclined uh researcher not a researcher

1406
00:53:26,990 --> 00:53:23,880
even so much as a professor probably of

1407
00:53:29,329 --> 00:53:27,000
of of uh of religious studies and a

1408
00:53:31,549 --> 00:53:29,339
colleague of Dr Halperin who again is uh

1409
00:53:33,589 --> 00:53:31,559
a retired professor of religious studies

1410
00:53:35,809 --> 00:53:33,599
from UNC Chapel Hill

1411
00:53:38,210 --> 00:53:35,819
and he says this pre-dynical mask

1412
00:53:39,770 --> 00:53:38,220
resembles the thing on the cover of that

1413
00:53:42,109 --> 00:53:39,780
book remarkably and again what we have

1414
00:53:43,490 --> 00:53:42,119
is we have slightly slanted ovoid wrap

1415
00:53:45,109 --> 00:53:43,500
around eyes

1416
00:53:47,450 --> 00:53:45,119
slight Peak at the top of the head but

1417
00:53:49,309 --> 00:53:47,460
essentially an egg-shaped head and I

1418
00:53:52,010 --> 00:53:49,319
looked at it and talking with Dr Halper

1419
00:53:55,010 --> 00:53:52,020
and I said and that image in the mask

1420
00:53:56,089 --> 00:53:55,020
that you see there is also remarkably

1421
00:53:59,569 --> 00:53:56,099
similar

1422
00:54:01,490 --> 00:53:59,579
to other artistic representations from

1423
00:54:03,589 --> 00:54:01,500
all around the world since time

1424
00:54:05,089 --> 00:54:03,599
immemorial I mean I've seen them in you

1425
00:54:08,210 --> 00:54:05,099
know from Mesopotamian art I've seen

1426
00:54:09,650 --> 00:54:08,220
them a lot in Mesoamerican art and see

1427
00:54:11,690 --> 00:54:09,660
this is where my interest in archeology

1428
00:54:14,690 --> 00:54:11,700
comes over into this

1429
00:54:16,309 --> 00:54:14,700
um you know I'm able to recognize not

1430
00:54:18,470 --> 00:54:16,319
that others can't but I mean I certainly

1431
00:54:19,970 --> 00:54:18,480
see those similarities myself and that

1432
00:54:21,530 --> 00:54:19,980
brings some interesting questions to

1433
00:54:22,790 --> 00:54:21,540
mind obviously we could interpret that

1434
00:54:24,530 --> 00:54:22,800
as being well these people knew what

1435
00:54:27,049 --> 00:54:24,540
these things look like and aliens have

1436
00:54:29,210 --> 00:54:27,059
been visiting us since time immemorial

1437
00:54:32,030 --> 00:54:29,220
maybe I don't know but

1438
00:54:34,190 --> 00:54:32,040
what Dr Halpern suggests is that

1439
00:54:36,470 --> 00:54:34,200
whatever this experience is it's not an

1440
00:54:38,150 --> 00:54:36,480
outer or an upper you know it's an inner

1441
00:54:40,430 --> 00:54:38,160
experience and that this whatever this

1442
00:54:42,230 --> 00:54:40,440
is is something that we see from here

1443
00:54:43,970 --> 00:54:42,240
and I've always thought about for

1444
00:54:45,349 --> 00:54:43,980
instance this brings us back to tasili

1445
00:54:48,890 --> 00:54:45,359
cave and some of these you know

1446
00:54:50,630 --> 00:54:48,900
representations of of strange beings and

1447
00:54:52,430 --> 00:54:50,640
personages that appear in cave art and

1448
00:54:56,210 --> 00:54:52,440
things some of them very literally Ryan

1449
00:54:58,849 --> 00:54:56,220
have mushrooms growing all over them

1450
00:55:01,490 --> 00:54:58,859
all right I mean it couldn't

1451
00:55:04,549 --> 00:55:01,500
it couldn't be more spelled out for us

1452
00:55:06,829 --> 00:55:04,559
right there these probably are gods or

1453
00:55:08,870 --> 00:55:06,839
deities are images that people may have

1454
00:55:10,250 --> 00:55:08,880
experienced when in Altered States Of

1455
00:55:12,770 --> 00:55:10,260
Consciousness and I've always thought

1456
00:55:14,569 --> 00:55:12,780
you know if you were an extraterrestrial

1457
00:55:17,450 --> 00:55:14,579
civilization

1458
00:55:19,609 --> 00:55:17,460
or let's say more importantly if we as

1459
00:55:20,990 --> 00:55:19,619
humans conceiving of an extraterrestrial

1460
00:55:21,950 --> 00:55:21,000
civilization we always think they're

1461
00:55:24,410 --> 00:55:21,960
going to have some sort of real

1462
00:55:25,970 --> 00:55:24,420
high-tech walkie-talkie you guys down

1463
00:55:28,849 --> 00:55:25,980
there

1464
00:55:30,950 --> 00:55:28,859
what if their methods of contact don't

1465
00:55:32,450 --> 00:55:30,960
involve dropping down in a flying saucer

1466
00:55:34,430 --> 00:55:32,460
on the on the front lawn of the White

1467
00:55:36,829 --> 00:55:34,440
House what if their version of contact

1468
00:55:38,329 --> 00:55:36,839
is direct direct you know direct to

1469
00:55:41,809 --> 00:55:38,339
consciousness

1470
00:55:43,370 --> 00:55:41,819
type contact and again take them for

1471
00:55:47,630 --> 00:55:43,380
whatever they are but I mean I will make

1472
00:55:50,390 --> 00:55:47,640
the um I will make the uh I'll raise the

1473
00:55:52,250 --> 00:55:50,400
point that in many uh cases where people

1474
00:55:54,890 --> 00:55:52,260
have described alleged contact with

1475
00:55:56,270 --> 00:55:54,900
occupants of UFOs

1476
00:55:58,549 --> 00:55:56,280
um there's one of two things that's

1477
00:56:01,190 --> 00:55:58,559
usually present curiously they are able

1478
00:56:03,470 --> 00:56:01,200
to understand what the aliens

1479
00:56:05,809 --> 00:56:03,480
say and they take it as they were

1480
00:56:07,069 --> 00:56:05,819
speaking English or some observers say

1481
00:56:08,450 --> 00:56:07,079
actually I don't recall ever seeing

1482
00:56:10,010 --> 00:56:08,460
their mouths move it was though they

1483
00:56:11,569 --> 00:56:10,020
were Barney Hill said this Betty Hill

1484
00:56:13,130 --> 00:56:11,579
said this it's as though they were

1485
00:56:15,190 --> 00:56:13,140
directing thought

1486
00:56:18,049 --> 00:56:15,200
to me and it was thought transference

1487
00:56:19,910 --> 00:56:18,059
Barney Hill by the way at the time that

1488
00:56:21,589 --> 00:56:19,920
he used that to describe it he wasn't

1489
00:56:24,530 --> 00:56:21,599
familiar as far as we know with the term

1490
00:56:27,049 --> 00:56:24,540
telepathy and so which I thought was it

1491
00:56:28,849 --> 00:56:27,059
was very novel that he actually used uh

1492
00:56:31,670 --> 00:56:28,859
such a interesting term thought

1493
00:56:33,589 --> 00:56:31,680
transference to describe it that might

1494
00:56:35,990 --> 00:56:33,599
be better than telepathy in my too far

1495
00:56:37,730 --> 00:56:36,000
off yeah yeah yeah I mean again and

1496
00:56:40,670 --> 00:56:37,740
that's a fascinating uh case in itself

1497
00:56:43,849 --> 00:56:40,680
but again the idea that the mind

1498
00:56:46,549 --> 00:56:43,859
is some component with the idea of

1499
00:56:48,829 --> 00:56:46,559
contact is already present in many

1500
00:56:51,290 --> 00:56:48,839
alleged claims of contact already and so

1501
00:56:53,270 --> 00:56:51,300
I can't help but wonder you know rather

1502
00:56:55,250 --> 00:56:53,280
than Spacemen in space suits on Cave

1503
00:56:58,069 --> 00:56:55,260
walls we very well may be seeing aliens

1504
00:57:00,530 --> 00:56:58,079
but again non-human intelligences that

1505
00:57:02,030 --> 00:57:00,540
were contacted through other methods of

1506
00:57:04,670 --> 00:57:02,040
contact and those probably involved

1507
00:57:06,650 --> 00:57:04,680
Altered States in my opinion so

1508
00:57:08,809 --> 00:57:06,660
again I think that there are all kinds

1509
00:57:10,549 --> 00:57:08,819
of mysteries in art from Antiquity and

1510
00:57:13,430 --> 00:57:10,559
even further back but we've got to be

1511
00:57:16,309 --> 00:57:13,440
really careful about saying they're four

1512
00:57:17,930 --> 00:57:16,319
flying saucers right really good point I

1513
00:57:20,930 --> 00:57:17,940
mean I know some people in the chat

1514
00:57:23,089 --> 00:57:20,940
brought up uh Alexander the Great seeing

1515
00:57:25,490 --> 00:57:23,099
flying shields in the sky before battle

1516
00:57:27,589 --> 00:57:25,500
or the Hopi Indians also seeing

1517
00:57:30,109 --> 00:57:27,599
something similar to Flying shields in

1518
00:57:33,170 --> 00:57:30,119
the sky as well may I touch on that

1519
00:57:35,510 --> 00:57:33,180
absolutely please do the the the motif

1520
00:57:38,329 --> 00:57:35,520
of shields flying through the sky are

1521
00:57:41,990 --> 00:57:38,339
falling from the sky that is a common

1522
00:57:44,270 --> 00:57:42,000
theme in many uh texts but again

1523
00:57:47,390 --> 00:57:44,280
if you read for instance uh especially

1524
00:57:49,370 --> 00:57:47,400
in the old world uh where uh on the day

1525
00:57:50,809 --> 00:57:49,380
of the great battle a shield fell from

1526
00:57:53,329 --> 00:57:50,819
the sky

1527
00:57:55,670 --> 00:57:53,339
yes the shield would have a superficial

1528
00:57:57,710 --> 00:57:55,680
appearance to a flying disc or saucer

1529
00:57:59,690 --> 00:57:57,720
but again culturally what that seems to

1530
00:58:01,549 --> 00:57:59,700
represent is the idea of favor shown

1531
00:58:04,309 --> 00:58:01,559
toward one side of the battle

1532
00:58:07,250 --> 00:58:04,319
uh you know than the other

1533
00:58:09,770 --> 00:58:07,260
um now I raised that point to to make uh

1534
00:58:11,510 --> 00:58:09,780
the observation that in historical

1535
00:58:13,010 --> 00:58:11,520
accounts there are references to a

1536
00:58:14,870 --> 00:58:13,020
number of things

1537
00:58:17,290 --> 00:58:14,880
um for you know a portion of the day we

1538
00:58:19,670 --> 00:58:17,300
observed a great disc in the sky

1539
00:58:21,890 --> 00:58:19,680
the disc of the sun especially in

1540
00:58:23,569 --> 00:58:21,900
Egyptian texts they refer to the disk of

1541
00:58:26,089 --> 00:58:23,579
the Sun

1542
00:58:29,390 --> 00:58:26,099
um I strongly suspect that going you

1543
00:58:31,069 --> 00:58:29,400
know a good ways back uh you know the

1544
00:58:32,690 --> 00:58:31,079
ancient mind could conceive of the idea

1545
00:58:34,670 --> 00:58:32,700
that the sun was a globe but I mean even

1546
00:58:37,490 --> 00:58:34,680
today superficially it appears almost

1547
00:58:38,630 --> 00:58:37,500
like a flattened disc and so we have to

1548
00:58:41,030 --> 00:58:38,640
be very careful when we think about

1549
00:58:42,770 --> 00:58:41,040
flying discs in the modern sense of what

1550
00:58:45,109 --> 00:58:42,780
that means versus when we read

1551
00:58:46,490 --> 00:58:45,119
translations of ancient texts that were

1552
00:58:49,010 --> 00:58:46,500
written in different languages which in

1553
00:58:50,690 --> 00:58:49,020
the translated form describe the disk of

1554
00:58:52,010 --> 00:58:50,700
the Sun or a disc in the sky or a shield

1555
00:58:55,309 --> 00:58:52,020
in the sky or something along those

1556
00:58:58,069 --> 00:58:55,319
lines those words and the interpretation

1557
00:59:00,049 --> 00:58:58,079
of those things could and often did mean

1558
00:59:02,569 --> 00:59:00,059
very different things to the ancient

1559
00:59:04,010 --> 00:59:02,579
mind than they did today however

1560
00:59:06,170 --> 00:59:04,020
um as someone there in the chat had

1561
00:59:08,930 --> 00:59:06,180
certainly uh pointed out uh there are

1562
00:59:11,569 --> 00:59:08,940
yes references to the idea of flying

1563
00:59:14,390 --> 00:59:11,579
Shields and some Hopi Traditions

1564
00:59:16,250 --> 00:59:14,400
um which again I I wouldn't begin to

1565
00:59:18,349 --> 00:59:16,260
understand fully the cultural lens

1566
00:59:20,329 --> 00:59:18,359
through which they are looking when they

1567
00:59:21,890 --> 00:59:20,339
describe something like that but I would

1568
00:59:23,109 --> 00:59:21,900
nonetheless maintain that we've got to

1569
00:59:26,990 --> 00:59:23,119
be very careful

1570
00:59:29,329 --> 00:59:27,000
in projecting our own willful desire to

1571
00:59:31,430 --> 00:59:29,339
find a flying saucer in you know

1572
00:59:33,410 --> 00:59:31,440
American Indian folklore

1573
00:59:35,030 --> 00:59:33,420
I mean that may be what it is but maybe

1574
00:59:37,430 --> 00:59:35,040
that's not what it is uh you know again

1575
00:59:39,530 --> 00:59:37,440
then again there are also some uh some

1576
00:59:41,690 --> 00:59:39,540
fantastic writers uh you know uh who

1577
00:59:43,370 --> 00:59:41,700
have indigenous Heritage rd6 killer

1578
00:59:45,049 --> 00:59:43,380
clerk who has written some very

1579
00:59:47,569 --> 00:59:45,059
interesting books that provide cultural

1580
00:59:49,250 --> 00:59:47,579
narratives on the UFO subject from a

1581
00:59:50,329 --> 00:59:49,260
Native American perspective which I

1582
00:59:52,609 --> 00:59:50,339
would recommend for those who are

1583
00:59:54,589 --> 00:59:52,619
interested in this subject to read

1584
00:59:57,410 --> 00:59:54,599
um you know some of the stories are they

1585
00:59:59,870 --> 00:59:57,420
they border they they find a an area

1586
01:00:02,270 --> 00:59:59,880
between myth and folklore and reality

1587
01:00:03,650 --> 01:00:02,280
that is hard to It's A Hard line to walk

1588
01:00:05,030 --> 01:00:03,660
at times but it makes for very

1589
01:00:07,789 --> 01:00:05,040
interesting reading she's a very

1590
01:00:09,530 --> 01:00:07,799
interesting writer yeah another one that

1591
01:00:11,390 --> 01:00:09,540
comes to mind would be Clifford mahuti

1592
01:00:14,089 --> 01:00:11,400
from the Sunni tribe

1593
01:00:16,250 --> 01:00:14,099
um I met with him recently to talk about

1594
01:00:19,430 --> 01:00:16,260
petroglyphs that he'd found in Arizona

1595
01:00:21,589 --> 01:00:19,440
and just hearing these stories of uh the

1596
01:00:24,770 --> 01:00:21,599
star people the sky people

1597
01:00:27,410 --> 01:00:24,780
um you know again it comes down to

1598
01:00:28,910 --> 01:00:27,420
culture and what's passed and what's

1599
01:00:30,950 --> 01:00:28,920
interpreted

1600
01:00:32,569 --> 01:00:30,960
um what we're talking about right now

1601
01:00:34,730 --> 01:00:32,579
we're really really

1602
01:00:37,970 --> 01:00:34,740
brings me back to the work of Carl Young

1603
01:00:40,250 --> 01:00:37,980
as well and you even said the word uh

1604
01:00:41,809 --> 01:00:40,260
you know anxiety or stress or

1605
01:00:44,870 --> 01:00:41,819
anticipation

1606
01:00:47,990 --> 01:00:44,880
um this idea that what we're seeing is

1607
01:00:51,890 --> 01:00:48,000
either aspiration of what we want our

1608
01:00:55,250 --> 01:00:51,900
technology to possibly become or um or

1609
01:00:57,609 --> 01:00:55,260
anxiety at the time uh he argues that a

1610
01:01:01,130 --> 01:00:57,619
lot of the UFO sightings posts World War

1611
01:01:03,109 --> 01:01:01,140
one before World War II uh these were

1612
01:01:04,549 --> 01:01:03,119
anxieties we had of

1613
01:01:07,250 --> 01:01:04,559
another

1614
01:01:10,490 --> 01:01:07,260
um invading or um the possibility of an

1615
01:01:12,530 --> 01:01:10,500
invasion in our skies of literally bombs

1616
01:01:13,849 --> 01:01:12,540
being dropped on us so

1617
01:01:15,230 --> 01:01:13,859
um what do you make of this whole thing

1618
01:01:17,210 --> 01:01:15,240
the idea of

1619
01:01:19,789 --> 01:01:17,220
stress anxiety

1620
01:01:22,430 --> 01:01:19,799
um the cultural mindset at that time

1621
01:01:23,030 --> 01:01:22,440
maybe even a collective consciousness of

1622
01:01:26,990 --> 01:01:23,040
um

1623
01:01:29,329 --> 01:01:27,000
something either uh a symbol or a

1624
01:01:31,309 --> 01:01:29,339
harbinger of like death or Doom I mean

1625
01:01:33,829 --> 01:01:31,319
we're having Mass UFO sightings right

1626
01:01:36,349 --> 01:01:33,839
now like never before in the middle of a

1627
01:01:38,089 --> 01:01:36,359
pandemic so what do you make of this

1628
01:01:40,789 --> 01:01:38,099
idea the stuff that Carl Young talks

1629
01:01:42,410 --> 01:01:40,799
about a lot well now Carl Jung uh it's

1630
01:01:43,789 --> 01:01:42,420
so funny that this came up because this

1631
01:01:46,609 --> 01:01:43,799
is something that Halperin and I were

1632
01:01:48,530 --> 01:01:46,619
talking about uh yesterday and uh I've

1633
01:01:50,329 --> 01:01:48,540
always been interested in Carl Jung

1634
01:01:52,430 --> 01:01:50,339
um for instance when he in some of his

1635
01:01:54,650 --> 01:01:52,440
essays on phenomenology he described

1636
01:01:56,270 --> 01:01:54,660
some of his patients who described

1637
01:01:58,490 --> 01:01:56,280
dreams from which they woke up and

1638
01:02:01,130 --> 01:01:58,500
solved you know grotesque hobgoblins and

1639
01:02:03,650 --> 01:02:01,140
kobolds standing around their bed

1640
01:02:05,930 --> 01:02:03,660
what does that sound like you know

1641
01:02:07,309 --> 01:02:05,940
um it's interesting again there are

1642
01:02:08,690 --> 01:02:07,319
always more than one interpretation of

1643
01:02:10,370 --> 01:02:08,700
something like that but some might say

1644
01:02:13,309 --> 01:02:10,380
that his patients were describing alien

1645
01:02:15,470 --> 01:02:13,319
abduction type experiences we also might

1646
01:02:17,150 --> 01:02:15,480
say he was identifying a variety of

1647
01:02:19,370 --> 01:02:17,160
dream encounter that many people in

1648
01:02:21,410 --> 01:02:19,380
modern times interpret as being a alien

1649
01:02:23,150 --> 01:02:21,420
abduction experience

1650
01:02:26,150 --> 01:02:23,160
um what everyone makes of it again

1651
01:02:28,609 --> 01:02:26,160
there's some fantastically rewarding

1652
01:02:31,010 --> 01:02:28,619
um reading in in Carl Jung even though

1653
01:02:33,589 --> 01:02:31,020
he's often disparaged in in modern times

1654
01:02:35,089 --> 01:02:33,599
Ryan people these days often kind of

1655
01:02:36,589 --> 01:02:35,099
write him off and they think all of this

1656
01:02:38,089 --> 01:02:36,599
you know discussion of archetypes and

1657
01:02:40,430 --> 01:02:38,099
things is nonsense

1658
01:02:42,829 --> 01:02:40,440
to the contrary if you look at some of

1659
01:02:44,690 --> 01:02:42,839
the psychological jargon that he

1660
01:02:47,329 --> 01:02:44,700
actually is responsible for introducing

1661
01:02:49,130 --> 01:02:47,339
into the not just archetype but again I

1662
01:02:50,990 --> 01:02:49,140
think that the idea the concept of

1663
01:02:53,210 --> 01:02:51,000
individuation which is essentially sort

1664
01:02:54,770 --> 01:02:53,220
of like a coming of it's it's all it's

1665
01:02:58,849 --> 01:02:54,780
not quite a coming-of-age individuation

1666
01:03:01,490 --> 01:02:58,859
often occurs later in life but he in in

1667
01:03:02,930 --> 01:03:01,500
describing that also seemed to be

1668
01:03:04,309 --> 01:03:02,940
described even though he didn't use this

1669
01:03:07,069 --> 01:03:04,319
term for it he seemed to describe the

1670
01:03:08,809 --> 01:03:07,079
midlife crisis that many men go through

1671
01:03:10,490 --> 01:03:08,819
um so the point I'm making is is that

1672
01:03:11,690 --> 01:03:10,500
Jung was actually very ahead of his time

1673
01:03:13,309 --> 01:03:11,700
and even though people a lot of people

1674
01:03:14,930 --> 01:03:13,319
got really dismayed with the fact that

1675
01:03:17,270 --> 01:03:14,940
toward the end of his life he starts

1676
01:03:19,370 --> 01:03:17,280
writing at length about alchemy and yes

1677
01:03:21,470 --> 01:03:19,380
flying saucers

1678
01:03:23,450 --> 01:03:21,480
um I actually found him to be deeply

1679
01:03:25,430 --> 01:03:23,460
insightful I think he was a Maverick I

1680
01:03:26,990 --> 01:03:25,440
think he was a genius he wasn't right

1681
01:03:28,789 --> 01:03:27,000
about everything and at times he's been

1682
01:03:30,049 --> 01:03:28,799
proven explicitly wrong but I don't

1683
01:03:32,089 --> 01:03:30,059
think that because you can prove that

1684
01:03:33,289 --> 01:03:32,099
somebody's wrong you know if one of my

1685
01:03:35,150 --> 01:03:33,299
fingers is wrong that doesn't mean that

1686
01:03:37,549 --> 01:03:35,160
the whole hand's got to go right which

1687
01:03:38,930 --> 01:03:37,559
we hope not but I mean the thing is is

1688
01:03:40,309 --> 01:03:38,940
that with Jung yeah toward the end of

1689
01:03:42,349 --> 01:03:40,319
his life he starts running about flying

1690
01:03:44,089 --> 01:03:42,359
saucers and he produced an essay which

1691
01:03:45,410 --> 01:03:44,099
yet again I think this should be

1692
01:03:46,970 --> 01:03:45,420
required reading for any serious

1693
01:03:49,670 --> 01:03:46,980
ufologist

1694
01:03:51,829 --> 01:03:49,680
um flying saucers a modern myth of

1695
01:03:54,589 --> 01:03:51,839
things seen in the skies there we go

1696
01:03:55,730 --> 01:03:54,599
here it is I came prepared buddy I may

1697
01:03:57,530 --> 01:03:55,740
not know what the hell we're talking

1698
01:04:00,410 --> 01:03:57,540
about but I got the literature to prove

1699
01:04:02,690 --> 01:04:00,420
I will all over it no no here's another

1700
01:04:05,450 --> 01:04:02,700
one just to add it in there yes yes well

1701
01:04:08,210 --> 01:04:05,460
yeah yeah a number of times over the

1702
01:04:09,710 --> 01:04:08,220
years and the last time he and I and his

1703
01:04:13,609 --> 01:04:09,720
wonderful assistant who's a dear friend

1704
01:04:16,069 --> 01:04:13,619
of mine Ramon zercher of Switzerland uh

1705
01:04:18,109 --> 01:04:16,079
they're they're wonderful guys you know

1706
01:04:19,670 --> 01:04:18,119
really quickly about Von daniken you

1707
01:04:22,910 --> 01:04:19,680
know he's kind of disparaging toward

1708
01:04:25,789 --> 01:04:22,920
ufology he says the ufologists they make

1709
01:04:28,670 --> 01:04:25,799
this ancient NASA notes look very bad we

1710
01:04:30,230 --> 01:04:28,680
cannot take the UFOs seriously they are

1711
01:04:33,230 --> 01:04:30,240
every everything that they see in this

1712
01:04:35,030 --> 01:04:33,240
guy is a UFO we are looking at the the

1713
01:04:37,370 --> 01:04:35,040
archaeological record and this is very

1714
01:04:39,829 --> 01:04:37,380
real so he's very

1715
01:04:41,210 --> 01:04:39,839
at times dismissive of what he sees as

1716
01:04:45,410 --> 01:04:41,220
being a bunch of hucksters and

1717
01:04:49,549 --> 01:04:47,770
he's not entirely wrong right

1718
01:04:51,049 --> 01:04:49,559
then again

1719
01:04:52,130 --> 01:04:51,059
I just won't tell you what some of my

1720
01:04:55,250 --> 01:04:52,140
friends in the archaeological Community

1721
01:04:56,630 --> 01:04:55,260
think of him but uh but you know I mean

1722
01:04:59,150 --> 01:04:56,640
I uh

1723
01:05:00,950 --> 01:04:59,160
is I I believe in talking to everybody

1724
01:05:02,990 --> 01:05:00,960
and sitting down and getting to know

1725
01:05:04,250 --> 01:05:03,000
what they think and I love when I have

1726
01:05:05,930 --> 01:05:04,260
that kind of experience with someone

1727
01:05:07,370 --> 01:05:05,940
anyway coming back young I just wanted

1728
01:05:10,849 --> 01:05:07,380
to interject that since you showed Von

1729
01:05:13,370 --> 01:05:10,859
Anakin's book oh yeah but a young

1730
01:05:15,170 --> 01:05:13,380
wrote about UFOs is a modern myth of

1731
01:05:18,109 --> 01:05:15,180
things seen in the sky

1732
01:05:20,150 --> 01:05:18,119
and uh you know yes people get very

1733
01:05:22,730 --> 01:05:20,160
offended by that idea of you know what

1734
01:05:24,109 --> 01:05:22,740
do you mean a myth UFOs is a myth but I

1735
01:05:25,370 --> 01:05:24,119
mean what he meant and I think that this

1736
01:05:27,950 --> 01:05:25,380
is the fundamental takeaway that one

1737
01:05:30,890 --> 01:05:27,960
must lean from any reading of Jung or

1738
01:05:32,930 --> 01:05:30,900
for that matter Joseph Campbell is that

1739
01:05:35,750 --> 01:05:32,940
a myth is part of the human experience

1740
01:05:37,789 --> 01:05:35,760
and humans are all I don't care who you

1741
01:05:39,589 --> 01:05:37,799
are we're all trying to find you know

1742
01:05:41,089 --> 01:05:39,599
ourselves and we're all trying to

1743
01:05:43,250 --> 01:05:41,099
understand what it really means to be

1744
01:05:44,690 --> 01:05:43,260
alive we may not go about our daily

1745
01:05:46,490 --> 01:05:44,700
lives thinking about those things

1746
01:05:48,049 --> 01:05:46,500
overtly all the time but I mean that's

1747
01:05:50,030 --> 01:05:48,059
part of the human experience to try and

1748
01:05:52,670 --> 01:05:50,040
find a sense of meaning and belonging

1749
01:05:54,890 --> 01:05:52,680
okay and we could go back into ancient

1750
01:05:56,270 --> 01:05:54,900
times and suggest strongly that politics

1751
01:05:58,549 --> 01:05:56,280
and religion and all these sorts of

1752
01:06:00,289 --> 01:05:58,559
tribal behaviors some of them I mean

1753
01:06:01,430 --> 01:06:00,299
they aren't all bad you know I'm not

1754
01:06:02,750 --> 01:06:01,440
saying it's bad to go to church on

1755
01:06:03,890 --> 01:06:02,760
Sunday if you're a religious person but

1756
01:06:05,870 --> 01:06:03,900
I am saying that you know again

1757
01:06:07,549 --> 01:06:05,880
religious observances political

1758
01:06:09,230 --> 01:06:07,559
attitudes

1759
01:06:12,289 --> 01:06:09,240
these are all

1760
01:06:15,349 --> 01:06:12,299
okay behavioral aspects of what it means

1761
01:06:17,990 --> 01:06:15,359
to be human that at times have been

1762
01:06:20,030 --> 01:06:18,000
beneficial to us and our survival I

1763
01:06:21,410 --> 01:06:20,040
highly recommend the book uh The

1764
01:06:23,569 --> 01:06:21,420
Righteous Mind

1765
01:06:25,130 --> 01:06:23,579
by Jonathan Hyatt has nothing to do with

1766
01:06:27,410 --> 01:06:25,140
UFOs but it will give you some really

1767
01:06:29,450 --> 01:06:27,420
interesting insight into

1768
01:06:31,970 --> 01:06:29,460
um politics religion and yes now apply

1769
01:06:34,849 --> 01:06:31,980
that to Believers versus Skeptics you

1770
01:06:37,190 --> 01:06:34,859
know it's a phenomenon in itself these

1771
01:06:38,390 --> 01:06:37,200
days that you know the Skeptics are the

1772
01:06:40,010 --> 01:06:38,400
ones who are the only ones who are

1773
01:06:42,770 --> 01:06:40,020
quoted on Wikipedia if you go read on

1774
01:06:45,349 --> 01:06:42,780
Wikipedia pages about UFOs and yet many

1775
01:06:47,930 --> 01:06:45,359
times I think it's actually demonstrable

1776
01:06:50,349 --> 01:06:47,940
that many of the Skeptics are no more

1777
01:06:52,849 --> 01:06:50,359
right and often are quite quite wrong

1778
01:06:54,109 --> 01:06:52,859
than you know the than the so-called

1779
01:06:56,809 --> 01:06:54,119
believers who are the crazy ones who

1780
01:06:58,430 --> 01:06:56,819
never get quoted so I I argue this

1781
01:07:00,650 --> 01:06:58,440
middle path and I think that young did

1782
01:07:02,210 --> 01:07:00,660
too and if you read a modern myth of

1783
01:07:03,890 --> 01:07:02,220
things in the sky you know his

1784
01:07:05,630 --> 01:07:03,900
conception of UFOs yes

1785
01:07:07,789 --> 01:07:05,640
throughout the duration of the book is

1786
01:07:10,670 --> 01:07:07,799
looking at the psychological and the

1787
01:07:13,309 --> 01:07:10,680
Mythos uh the the psycho symbolic with

1788
01:07:14,990 --> 01:07:13,319
them psycho or the mytho psychological

1789
01:07:17,930 --> 01:07:15,000
he has different terms for it but he

1790
01:07:20,930 --> 01:07:17,940
looks at the mythical component

1791
01:07:22,849 --> 01:07:20,940
okay how human myth

1792
01:07:24,650 --> 01:07:22,859
and how those ideas of archetypes you

1793
01:07:26,029 --> 01:07:24,660
know these recurring themes that seem to

1794
01:07:28,549 --> 01:07:26,039
be something that the human mind

1795
01:07:30,529 --> 01:07:28,559
possesses which are evidence of

1796
01:07:32,029 --> 01:07:30,539
um past experience if we were to Define

1797
01:07:34,970 --> 01:07:32,039
an archetype essentially it is a

1798
01:07:37,490 --> 01:07:34,980
recurring Motif in human culture that is

1799
01:07:39,890 --> 01:07:37,500
essentially a Vestige of an earlier

1800
01:07:42,770 --> 01:07:39,900
Human Experience and those archetypal

1801
01:07:46,250 --> 01:07:42,780
ideas are become

1802
01:07:49,390 --> 01:07:46,260
um they become uh often indelibly a part

1803
01:07:51,950 --> 01:07:49,400
of our mythology and there is similarity

1804
01:07:53,809 --> 01:07:51,960
in mythologies from different parts of

1805
01:07:55,250 --> 01:07:53,819
the world that presumably had no contact

1806
01:07:58,430 --> 01:07:55,260
with one another which is strongly

1807
01:08:00,710 --> 01:07:58,440
evocative of this idea that uh the the

1808
01:08:03,049 --> 01:08:00,720
Mythic portion of the human mind

1809
01:08:05,569 --> 01:08:03,059
evolutionarily speaking this gets kind

1810
01:08:06,829 --> 01:08:05,579
of out there but bear with me the Mythic

1811
01:08:09,770 --> 01:08:06,839
element of the Mind the math the

1812
01:08:13,069 --> 01:08:09,780
language of myth or archetype

1813
01:08:14,990 --> 01:08:13,079
um is Bears a continuity because of the

1814
01:08:16,849 --> 01:08:15,000
idea that deep down there was a shared

1815
01:08:17,930 --> 01:08:16,859
common experience think of flood myths

1816
01:08:18,950 --> 01:08:17,940
from all around the world in different

1817
01:08:21,229 --> 01:08:18,960
cultures

1818
01:08:23,390 --> 01:08:21,239
right even Native American legends

1819
01:08:25,610 --> 01:08:23,400
describe those I mean think of for

1820
01:08:28,010 --> 01:08:25,620
instance this is a weird one

1821
01:08:29,630 --> 01:08:28,020
um the idea that when it rains when the

1822
01:08:31,570 --> 01:08:29,640
sun is shining

1823
01:08:33,950 --> 01:08:31,580
so many cultures around the world

1824
01:08:36,169 --> 01:08:33,960
interpret that as being a fox wedding

1825
01:08:38,209 --> 01:08:36,179
they say foxes are getting married

1826
01:08:41,209 --> 01:08:38,219
they're all over the world there are

1827
01:08:43,729 --> 01:08:41,219
cultures that have this tradition

1828
01:08:46,010 --> 01:08:43,739
so Jung was very interested in the the

1829
01:08:49,430 --> 01:08:46,020
reasons why those similarities appear

1830
01:08:52,010 --> 01:08:49,440
and so he's looking at UFOs as being a

1831
01:08:53,809 --> 01:08:52,020
projection of you know our Collective

1832
01:08:55,010 --> 01:08:53,819
concerns I mean it's no surprise that

1833
01:08:56,630 --> 01:08:55,020
these things start showing up right

1834
01:08:59,269 --> 01:08:56,640
after the second world war and so War

1835
01:09:01,309 --> 01:08:59,279
nerves and all this causes this sort of

1836
01:09:03,590 --> 01:09:01,319
mythical aspect of the human mind to

1837
01:09:06,050 --> 01:09:03,600
communicate and we begin to have this

1838
01:09:08,030 --> 01:09:06,060
collective experience of the UFO as a

1839
01:09:09,110 --> 01:09:08,040
Visionary mythical modern mythical kind

1840
01:09:11,630 --> 01:09:09,120
of a thing

1841
01:09:13,610 --> 01:09:11,640
so there you go there's a psychological

1842
01:09:17,990 --> 01:09:13,620
perspective the last chapter in that

1843
01:09:20,030 --> 01:09:18,000
book yeah now I mean I don't know if you

1844
01:09:22,729 --> 01:09:20,040
we can't speak for helper and we can't

1845
01:09:25,189 --> 01:09:22,739
speak for uh young obviously but within

1846
01:09:27,169 --> 01:09:25,199
their writing or from you interviewing

1847
01:09:28,849 --> 01:09:27,179
Halpern

1848
01:09:31,430 --> 01:09:28,859
someone brings up in the chat Brian

1849
01:09:34,610 --> 01:09:31,440
brings up um you know young thought this

1850
01:09:36,890 --> 01:09:34,620
was all some big Mass hallucination

1851
01:09:39,349 --> 01:09:36,900
um the circle being that of Oneness to

1852
01:09:42,590 --> 01:09:39,359
bring us back together this that um it's

1853
01:09:46,390 --> 01:09:42,600
fascinating now would Halperin or do you

1854
01:09:48,470 --> 01:09:46,400
think Young would admit or at least

1855
01:09:49,970 --> 01:09:48,480
acknowledge I guess is a better word

1856
01:09:52,490 --> 01:09:49,980
that there is an actual physical

1857
01:09:54,830 --> 01:09:52,500
phenomenon happening they can't all be

1858
01:09:56,270 --> 01:09:54,840
Mass hallucinations right young didn't

1859
01:09:57,770 --> 01:09:56,280
think so and thank you Brian for

1860
01:09:59,510 --> 01:09:57,780
bringing it up that's a great Point um

1861
01:10:01,610 --> 01:09:59,520
that last chapter that I we're going to

1862
01:10:02,650 --> 01:10:01,620
mention there yes in the last chapter of

1863
01:10:04,189 --> 01:10:02,660
the book

1864
01:10:04,910 --> 01:10:04,199
young

1865
01:10:07,970 --> 01:10:04,920
um

1866
01:10:09,590 --> 01:10:07,980
he says look you know

1867
01:10:11,330 --> 01:10:09,600
if these things are just purely

1868
01:10:16,870 --> 01:10:11,340
psychological

1869
01:10:20,689 --> 01:10:16,880
projection that can be detected on radar

1870
01:10:22,610 --> 01:10:20,699
and therefore and here's the thing young

1871
01:10:25,130 --> 01:10:22,620
was something of an amateur ufologist

1872
01:10:27,410 --> 01:10:25,140
himself he says in the book he had I've

1873
01:10:29,570 --> 01:10:27,420
been in I've corresponded with Edward

1874
01:10:32,270 --> 01:10:29,580
Rupert I have corresponded with Donald

1875
01:10:34,370 --> 01:10:32,280
Kehoe he was in touch with all of the

1876
01:10:35,630 --> 01:10:34,380
leading researchers in this field at

1877
01:10:38,149 --> 01:10:35,640
that time

1878
01:10:40,189 --> 01:10:38,159
and he acknowledged look some of these

1879
01:10:42,350 --> 01:10:40,199
things show up on radar there are

1880
01:10:44,030 --> 01:10:42,360
multiple witness sightings and again

1881
01:10:48,050 --> 01:10:44,040
that's the point I want to drive home

1882
01:10:50,030 --> 01:10:48,060
here too we have to look at the human

1883
01:10:51,649 --> 01:10:50,040
faculty because really everything we've

1884
01:10:53,990 --> 01:10:51,659
been doing tonight you know looking at

1885
01:10:55,729 --> 01:10:54,000
the cases from Antiquity you know up to

1886
01:10:58,010 --> 01:10:55,739
the present and even I think in modern

1887
01:11:00,350 --> 01:10:58,020
UFO sightings too

1888
01:11:03,709 --> 01:11:00,360
we have to look at that young inside of

1889
01:11:05,870 --> 01:11:03,719
this but I don't present that as a pet

1890
01:11:08,510 --> 01:11:05,880
theory that explains all UFOs and I'm

1891
01:11:10,669 --> 01:11:08,520
very thankful that Jung

1892
01:11:13,370 --> 01:11:10,679
despite being the eminent psychologist

1893
01:11:15,110 --> 01:11:13,380
of his time you know and arguably the

1894
01:11:17,390 --> 01:11:15,120
most influential of all time even more

1895
01:11:20,390 --> 01:11:17,400
so in my opinion than Freud all of a

1896
01:11:21,950 --> 01:11:20,400
sudden made a dispute that uh he also

1897
01:11:24,350 --> 01:11:21,960
said look guys

1898
01:11:25,729 --> 01:11:24,360
we cannot deny some tangible reality to

1899
01:11:27,290 --> 01:11:25,739
some of these sightings and I absolutely

1900
01:11:30,350 --> 01:11:27,300
agree with that now

1901
01:11:31,430 --> 01:11:30,360
um Dr Halperin does not he said as I

1902
01:11:33,229 --> 01:11:31,440
spoke with him and again what a

1903
01:11:35,149 --> 01:11:33,239
wonderful interview wonderful guy to

1904
01:11:36,590 --> 01:11:35,159
talk with but I asked him I said now

1905
01:11:38,270 --> 01:11:36,600
let's let's talk about something you

1906
01:11:42,050 --> 01:11:38,280
mentioned in the book Lonnie Zamora and

1907
01:11:44,990 --> 01:11:42,060
sakuro Dr Halperin said I still cannot

1908
01:11:46,550 --> 01:11:45,000
reconcile with that one that one

1909
01:11:48,410 --> 01:11:46,560
you know there were physical traces left

1910
01:11:49,910 --> 01:11:48,420
at the Landing site

1911
01:11:52,070 --> 01:11:49,920
um if we were actually a deep reading of

1912
01:11:54,470 --> 01:11:52,080
vet case I mean there may have been

1913
01:11:56,450 --> 01:11:54,480
other Witnesses other than Lonnie Zamora

1914
01:11:57,830 --> 01:11:56,460
the skeptical interpretation too I've

1915
01:12:00,649 --> 01:11:57,840
seen over the years one had been that it

1916
01:12:02,209 --> 01:12:00,659
was an experimental Landing module uh

1917
01:12:04,370 --> 01:12:02,219
that had been tested but if that's the

1918
01:12:07,370 --> 01:12:04,380
case again I don't see an identifiable

1919
01:12:09,169 --> 01:12:07,380
propulsion system the skeptical angle on

1920
01:12:10,729 --> 01:12:09,179
the landing module would have been that

1921
01:12:11,930 --> 01:12:10,739
it's actually been carried alongside a

1922
01:12:13,370 --> 01:12:11,940
helicopter and that Lonnie just didn't

1923
01:12:14,390 --> 01:12:13,380
see that it was on a helicopter I'm like

1924
01:12:19,310 --> 01:12:14,400
come on

1925
01:12:22,550 --> 01:12:19,320
was a candle balloon in the words of one

1926
01:12:24,590 --> 01:12:22,560
local uh uh scientist who had argued

1927
01:12:26,450 --> 01:12:24,600
this he said it was a candle balloon not

1928
01:12:29,330 --> 01:12:26,460
sophisticated that sure don't sound like

1929
01:12:30,910 --> 01:12:29,340
what Lonnie Zamora saw to me okay yeah

1930
01:12:34,310 --> 01:12:30,920
yeah

1931
01:12:36,530 --> 01:12:34,320
took such interest in that case again I

1932
01:12:38,930 --> 01:12:36,540
think at times and this is the only I I

1933
01:12:40,729 --> 01:12:38,940
being so skeptical myself it's funny I

1934
01:12:42,470 --> 01:12:40,739
actually catch some ire from certain

1935
01:12:44,450 --> 01:12:42,480
Skeptics but I'm friends with a lot of

1936
01:12:46,370 --> 01:12:44,460
them too including a shout out to my man

1937
01:12:47,870 --> 01:12:46,380
Eric wojakowski you know he's a writer

1938
01:12:48,950 --> 01:12:47,880
for skeptic magazine and he and I have

1939
01:12:50,630 --> 01:12:48,960
corresponded over the years and I've had

1940
01:12:52,550 --> 01:12:50,640
him on my show

1941
01:12:54,590 --> 01:12:52,560
um I appreciate the skeptical

1942
01:12:55,729 --> 01:12:54,600
interpretation as well as that of many

1943
01:12:58,070 --> 01:12:55,739
believers

1944
01:13:00,290 --> 01:12:58,080
but when anybody starts claiming that

1945
01:13:02,930 --> 01:13:00,300
they can explain 100 of the time

1946
01:13:05,990 --> 01:13:02,940
something that there is so much varied

1947
01:13:07,669 --> 01:13:06,000
debate about it as you know the case

1948
01:13:09,490 --> 01:13:07,679
with UFOs I immediately become skeptical

1949
01:13:12,830 --> 01:13:09,500
of that skepticism

1950
01:13:16,910 --> 01:13:12,840
the feedback loop man I know yeah okay

1951
01:13:17,870 --> 01:13:16,920
well okay so let's let's talk about

1952
01:13:20,390 --> 01:13:17,880
um

1953
01:13:22,970 --> 01:13:20,400
let's move ahead I guess a little bit to

1954
01:13:24,410 --> 01:13:22,980
more than modern UFO era um build upon

1955
01:13:25,970 --> 01:13:24,420
what we just talked about in terms of

1956
01:13:29,390 --> 01:13:25,980
interpretation and

1957
01:13:31,610 --> 01:13:29,400
um and everything uh we moved to the

1958
01:13:34,370 --> 01:13:31,620
work of Charles Ford now I know this is

1959
01:13:36,950 --> 01:13:34,380
a huge inspiration for you in your work

1960
01:13:39,950 --> 01:13:36,960
and many other 14 researchers out there

1961
01:13:42,350 --> 01:13:39,960
and uh you brought to me the um the 14

1962
01:13:44,810 --> 01:13:42,360
society and UFOs

1963
01:13:47,209 --> 01:13:44,820
um a survey of the UFO mystery um going

1964
01:13:49,669 --> 01:13:47,219
all the way from you know the late 1800s

1965
01:13:51,950 --> 01:13:49,679
up to the mid 40s when I guess

1966
01:13:53,270 --> 01:13:51,960
presumably the modern UFO era really

1967
01:13:55,310 --> 01:13:53,280
started so

1968
01:13:57,350 --> 01:13:55,320
um what did you take away from this the

1969
01:14:00,590 --> 01:13:57,360
work of Dr Fort when excuse me Charles

1970
01:14:02,689 --> 01:14:00,600
Fort when it comes to this yeah yeah a

1971
01:14:05,570 --> 01:14:02,699
doctor in his own mind in his own mind

1972
01:14:07,370 --> 01:14:05,580
yes and many others yeah I like that

1973
01:14:08,450 --> 01:14:07,380
yeah

1974
01:14:10,790 --> 01:14:08,460
um

1975
01:14:13,669 --> 01:14:10,800
you know so

1976
01:14:16,610 --> 01:14:13,679
Fort had a lot of interesting

1977
01:14:19,610 --> 01:14:16,620
um ideas and uh to call them interesting

1978
01:14:20,750 --> 01:14:19,620
is maybe in the minds of some a little

1979
01:14:22,910 --> 01:14:20,760
too nice although I don't know if you

1980
01:14:25,430 --> 01:14:22,920
ever wrote anything offensive but

1981
01:14:28,310 --> 01:14:25,440
I'm trying to think of uh uh oh it was

1982
01:14:30,530 --> 01:14:28,320
heinic heinek had spoken pretty

1983
01:14:32,630 --> 01:14:30,540
dismissively about Charles Ford I think

1984
01:14:34,510 --> 01:14:32,640
heineck acknowledged

1985
01:14:37,790 --> 01:14:34,520
that fort

1986
01:14:40,189 --> 01:14:37,800
anticipated modern ufology but he did

1987
01:14:41,990 --> 01:14:40,199
not seem to approve of the way that Fort

1988
01:14:44,450 --> 01:14:42,000
wrote about it and actually reports

1989
01:14:47,590 --> 01:14:44,460
writing style in and of itself was just

1990
01:14:50,510 --> 01:14:47,600
damned bizarre do you remember yeah

1991
01:14:54,050 --> 01:14:50,520
you know like um let me see if I can uh

1992
01:14:55,810 --> 01:14:54,060
uh freestyle Rapa uh you know an example

1993
01:14:58,610 --> 01:14:55,820
for you here here we go

1994
01:15:01,189 --> 01:14:58,620
strange light shot from cloud like blood

1995
01:15:05,330 --> 01:15:01,199
dropping from eye of dragon wind Blue

1996
01:15:07,850 --> 01:15:05,340
Blood rain blood rain blood rain I mean

1997
01:15:10,669 --> 01:15:07,860
he wrote in this bizarre kind of

1998
01:15:12,229 --> 01:15:10,679
rambling kind of I guess it was prose

1999
01:15:15,110 --> 01:15:12,239
but it was almost poetic at times and

2000
01:15:17,689 --> 01:15:15,120
I'm just like man what is you know it's

2001
01:15:19,910 --> 01:15:17,699
it's very difficult but yet it had it

2002
01:15:22,729 --> 01:15:19,920
had an effect and obviously a lasting

2003
01:15:25,250 --> 01:15:22,739
one you know so young but but now what

2004
01:15:26,630 --> 01:15:25,260
what's she almost said Jung um

2005
01:15:28,669 --> 01:15:26,640
I would love to know what Jung thought

2006
01:15:31,970 --> 01:15:28,679
about of uh Fort and I'm sure probably

2007
01:15:34,610 --> 01:15:31,980
it's mentioned somewhere but the um the

2008
01:15:37,130 --> 01:15:34,620
big takeaway for me uh with four he did

2009
01:15:39,229 --> 01:15:37,140
two things Fort got people thinking

2010
01:15:42,290 --> 01:15:39,239
outside the box

2011
01:15:44,870 --> 01:15:42,300
you know fort fort was the kind of guy

2012
01:15:46,490 --> 01:15:44,880
who he didn't mind the ridicule he

2013
01:15:48,470 --> 01:15:46,500
wanted to go up there and smack science

2014
01:15:49,910 --> 01:15:48,480
around and say you know what's this

2015
01:15:52,550 --> 01:15:49,920
what's this what's this

2016
01:15:54,530 --> 01:15:52,560
this isn't from you know some crackpot

2017
01:15:56,870 --> 01:15:54,540
you know novel or some journal or some

2018
01:15:59,870 --> 01:15:56,880
you know scroll I found in a cave

2019
01:16:02,030 --> 01:15:59,880
this was from you know the minutes of

2020
01:16:03,649 --> 01:16:02,040
the Royal Society this is from the

2021
01:16:05,209 --> 01:16:03,659
journal Nature I mean he was going and

2022
01:16:09,229 --> 01:16:05,219
he was harvesting

2023
01:16:11,390 --> 01:16:09,239
uh reports that fell outside of

2024
01:16:14,330 --> 01:16:11,400
conventional fault he was harvesting

2025
01:16:16,370 --> 01:16:14,340
them from science literature

2026
01:16:18,310 --> 01:16:16,380
and that was I think why what he did was

2027
01:16:20,870 --> 01:16:18,320
so effective because people were like

2028
01:16:22,729 --> 01:16:20,880
what is that

2029
01:16:24,169 --> 01:16:22,739
and um

2030
01:16:26,570 --> 01:16:24,179
and it inspired I think a whole

2031
01:16:27,709 --> 01:16:26,580
generation of of similar thinkers so

2032
01:16:29,090 --> 01:16:27,719
that's the one thing that he did that

2033
01:16:32,149 --> 01:16:29,100
was so important but the other thing and

2034
01:16:36,590 --> 01:16:32,159
this is really key for UFO researchers

2035
01:16:38,630 --> 01:16:36,600
Fort was cataloging anomalous aerial

2036
01:16:42,709 --> 01:16:38,640
occurrences

2037
01:16:44,570 --> 01:16:42,719
uh well in advance of 1947.

2038
01:16:47,990 --> 01:16:44,580
and what's really interesting and again

2039
01:16:49,790 --> 01:16:48,000
the uh late historian Lauren gross who

2040
01:16:52,630 --> 01:16:49,800
we mentioned earlier did you know

2041
01:16:56,330 --> 01:16:52,640
fantastic work with this in chronicling

2042
01:16:58,729 --> 01:16:56,340
the continued interest after Fort of the

2043
01:17:01,490 --> 01:16:58,739
fortean society leading up to the age of

2044
01:17:04,930 --> 01:17:01,500
the saucers that begins in 1947. the

2045
01:17:08,689 --> 01:17:04,940
14th Society was very much involved

2046
01:17:10,430 --> 01:17:08,699
in documenting alleged reports of aerial

2047
01:17:13,370 --> 01:17:10,440
phenomena before things were called

2048
01:17:14,990 --> 01:17:13,380
flying saucers or UFOs of any sort

2049
01:17:16,310 --> 01:17:15,000
so in addition to getting people

2050
01:17:18,110 --> 01:17:16,320
thinking outside of the box and really

2051
01:17:21,110 --> 01:17:18,120
having this cultural impact that he did

2052
01:17:23,689 --> 01:17:21,120
for good or for ill you know um Fort

2053
01:17:25,070 --> 01:17:23,699
also seemed to have anticipated he and

2054
01:17:26,689 --> 01:17:25,080
the forteons that followed after him

2055
01:17:29,930 --> 01:17:26,699
they anticipated

2056
01:17:31,790 --> 01:17:29,940
the modern UFO era and a great example

2057
01:17:33,050 --> 01:17:31,800
um well first I should note that you

2058
01:17:35,570 --> 01:17:33,060
know Fort actually wrote pretty

2059
01:17:38,510 --> 01:17:35,580
extensively not only about the airships

2060
01:17:40,910 --> 01:17:38,520
but he also looked at uh astronomers and

2061
01:17:42,470 --> 01:17:40,920
their observations of unusual objects

2062
01:17:44,209 --> 01:17:42,480
and there's this fantastic kind of

2063
01:17:46,910 --> 01:17:44,219
corollary we can make here which ties

2064
01:17:48,770 --> 01:17:46,920
back in with the um report the The

2065
01:17:50,390 --> 01:17:48,780
Legend of the Skyship dropping the

2066
01:17:52,669 --> 01:17:50,400
anchor and everything that you mentioned

2067
01:17:53,930 --> 01:17:52,679
earlier Lauren gross in writing about

2068
01:17:55,790 --> 01:17:53,940
fort

2069
01:17:57,410 --> 01:17:55,800
talked about uh the the famous

2070
01:18:01,430 --> 01:17:57,420
observation

2071
01:18:02,810 --> 01:18:01,440
of uh uh what was the the German

2072
01:18:04,130 --> 01:18:02,820
um or actually I guess he was actually

2073
01:18:06,530 --> 01:18:04,140
in Switzerland at the time that he

2074
01:18:07,970 --> 01:18:06,540
observed this but the astronomer um this

2075
01:18:08,750 --> 01:18:07,980
is of course in the book of the Damned

2076
01:18:11,209 --> 01:18:08,760
where

2077
01:18:13,550 --> 01:18:11,219
a strange object a spindle-shaped object

2078
01:18:15,050 --> 01:18:13,560
is observed over the Sun

2079
01:18:17,570 --> 01:18:15,060
and um

2080
01:18:21,590 --> 01:18:17,580
this again I think occurs in the middle

2081
01:18:23,510 --> 01:18:21,600
1700s right and Fort was of the mind

2082
01:18:25,970 --> 01:18:23,520
that this was he he gave this thing a

2083
01:18:28,550 --> 01:18:25,980
name he said this was a super Zeppelin

2084
01:18:31,189 --> 01:18:28,560
he said somebody else's Zeppelin that

2085
01:18:34,130 --> 01:18:31,199
can fly between planets was seen and

2086
01:18:36,410 --> 01:18:34,140
this this is what was observed out there

2087
01:18:38,510 --> 01:18:36,420
as it was orbiting the Sun or as it was

2088
01:18:39,890 --> 01:18:38,520
passing between Earth and the Sun

2089
01:18:41,689 --> 01:18:39,900
and he gave it a name he called it

2090
01:18:44,689 --> 01:18:41,699
monstrator

2091
01:18:47,090 --> 01:18:44,699
that's what called this Lauren gross

2092
01:18:49,729 --> 01:18:47,100
writing about monstrator

2093
01:18:52,790 --> 01:18:49,739
said for Fort they had arrived someone

2094
01:18:54,709 --> 01:18:52,800
had dropped anchor and I just I love

2095
01:18:55,910 --> 01:18:54,719
that interpretation again we don't know

2096
01:18:57,590 --> 01:18:55,920
what this thing was this very well may

2097
01:19:00,530 --> 01:18:57,600
have been an early astronomical

2098
01:19:02,450 --> 01:19:00,540
observation of an omuamua like

2099
01:19:03,770 --> 01:19:02,460
uh object you know in our own solar

2100
01:19:05,030 --> 01:19:03,780
system or something Interstellar that

2101
01:19:07,430 --> 01:19:05,040
came from outside that was passing

2102
01:19:09,410 --> 01:19:07,440
through we don't know

2103
01:19:11,149 --> 01:19:09,420
um I doubt sincerely that if omu mua is

2104
01:19:12,890 --> 01:19:11,159
an Interstellar visitor that it is

2105
01:19:14,209 --> 01:19:12,900
really the only the first one rather

2106
01:19:17,030 --> 01:19:14,219
it's certainly not the only one because

2107
01:19:18,709 --> 01:19:17,040
we've got this this other uh Comet uh

2108
01:19:21,350 --> 01:19:18,719
now fragmentary comment that is split

2109
01:19:22,910 --> 01:19:21,360
into two but which uh is believed also

2110
01:19:24,890 --> 01:19:22,920
to have been of interstellar origin but

2111
01:19:26,630 --> 01:19:24,900
the point I'm making is is that our

2112
01:19:28,189 --> 01:19:26,640
observation of interstellar objects

2113
01:19:29,810 --> 01:19:28,199
passing through our solar system is

2114
01:19:32,030 --> 01:19:29,820
limited by the technology that we were

2115
01:19:33,350 --> 01:19:32,040
able to utilize in observing them and

2116
01:19:35,209 --> 01:19:33,360
prior to the existence of that

2117
01:19:37,430 --> 01:19:35,219
technology who's to say there weren't

2118
01:19:38,930 --> 01:19:37,440
other omuamuas that came through

2119
01:19:40,970 --> 01:19:38,940
now

2120
01:19:43,610 --> 01:19:40,980
um to give a non-40 an example of the

2121
01:19:45,110 --> 01:19:43,620
anticipation of ufo-like literature like

2122
01:19:48,590 --> 01:19:45,120
what we're discussing there I referenced

2123
01:19:50,750 --> 01:19:48,600
this article by Vincent Gaddis visitors

2124
01:19:52,669 --> 01:19:50,760
from the void which is a fantastic

2125
01:19:55,910 --> 01:19:52,679
article that appeared in the same issue

2126
01:19:57,410 --> 01:19:55,920
of Ray Palmer's Amazing Stories as the

2127
01:20:00,530 --> 01:19:57,420
introduction of what became known as the

2128
01:20:04,490 --> 01:20:02,870
I'm sure a lot of people know yeah at

2129
01:20:06,890 --> 01:20:04,500
least my listeners know are familiar

2130
01:20:09,830 --> 01:20:06,900
yeah yeah Richard Sharp Shavers you know

2131
01:20:13,490 --> 01:20:09,840
crazy ramblings about uh detrimental

2132
01:20:16,370 --> 01:20:13,500
robots or darrows leftovers yeah yeah

2133
01:20:18,669 --> 01:20:16,380
then sane robotic remnants of A Lost

2134
01:20:21,350 --> 01:20:18,679
Civilization that was here on Earth

2135
01:20:23,209 --> 01:20:21,360
Homer tried to keep it at arm's distance

2136
01:20:24,890 --> 01:20:23,219
but Palmer definitely Ray Palmer the

2137
01:20:26,570 --> 01:20:24,900
publisher of Amazing Stories seemed to

2138
01:20:29,930 --> 01:20:26,580
really think

2139
01:20:32,570 --> 01:20:29,940
that in likelihood this was all true he

2140
01:20:34,610 --> 01:20:32,580
thought shaver has explained and what's

2141
01:20:36,410 --> 01:20:34,620
fascinating is is that

2142
01:20:38,570 --> 01:20:36,420
Palmer also

2143
01:20:41,570 --> 01:20:38,580
had claimed that he was receiving

2144
01:20:43,370 --> 01:20:41,580
reports he wrote prior to 1947 that he'd

2145
01:20:45,169 --> 01:20:43,380
been getting reports from servicemen and

2146
01:20:46,910 --> 01:20:45,179
women who had been in the Pacific

2147
01:20:49,370 --> 01:20:46,920
Theater or in the you know who had been

2148
01:20:50,689 --> 01:20:49,380
over you know Europe during the second

2149
01:20:52,550 --> 01:20:50,699
World War

2150
01:20:54,290 --> 01:20:52,560
and he says I think that shaver Mr

2151
01:20:56,689 --> 01:20:54,300
shaver will be Vindicated here in the

2152
01:20:58,189 --> 01:20:56,699
years to come and that the reports I'm

2153
01:20:59,450 --> 01:20:58,199
getting from some of our folks who've

2154
01:21:01,850 --> 01:20:59,460
been flying over Europe they've been

2155
01:21:04,310 --> 01:21:01,860
seeing things that I think will will

2156
01:21:07,130 --> 01:21:04,320
vindicate Mr Shaver's story well lowen

2157
01:21:09,169 --> 01:21:07,140
damn behold I mean again Charles book

2158
01:21:11,090 --> 01:21:09,179
Charles fort's book of the Damned being

2159
01:21:13,250 --> 01:21:11,100
the whole thing he says these are the

2160
01:21:15,830 --> 01:21:13,260
Damned facts that science won't allow

2161
01:21:19,189 --> 01:21:15,840
in that issue that introduces the shaver

2162
01:21:21,290 --> 01:21:19,199
mystery Vincent H Gattis publishes the

2163
01:21:22,790 --> 01:21:21,300
article visitors from the void and I

2164
01:21:23,930 --> 01:21:22,800
want to just read really briefly here

2165
01:21:26,510 --> 01:21:23,940
from the beginning

2166
01:21:29,810 --> 01:21:26,520
there have been signs symbols and

2167
01:21:31,250 --> 01:21:29,820
objects in the skies of Earth

2168
01:21:34,550 --> 01:21:31,260
like we've been discussing all night

2169
01:21:37,010 --> 01:21:34,560
Ryan prescribed as snakes swords lights

2170
01:21:39,110 --> 01:21:37,020
and Rockets slow-moving so-called

2171
01:21:41,570 --> 01:21:39,120
meteors of zigzagged their way above the

2172
01:21:43,729 --> 01:21:41,580
clouds and stratospheric explosions have

2173
01:21:46,490 --> 01:21:43,739
rocked the land below

2174
01:21:48,110 --> 01:21:46,500
mysterious Rays stopped airplane Motors

2175
01:21:50,570 --> 01:21:48,120
over the world's largest city is

2176
01:21:53,270 --> 01:21:50,580
unidentified Phantom planes puzzled the

2177
01:21:55,310 --> 01:21:53,280
war Departments of four nations ships

2178
01:21:57,410 --> 01:21:55,320
and men were observed to drop from the

2179
01:21:59,750 --> 01:21:57,420
heavens and isolated areas

2180
01:22:01,550 --> 01:21:59,760
only to vanish and he says this is the

2181
01:22:02,990 --> 01:22:01,560
startling story of bewildering events

2182
01:22:05,390 --> 01:22:03,000
that have occurred in the last few years

2183
01:22:08,090 --> 01:22:05,400
what relationship if any exists between

2184
01:22:10,250 --> 01:22:08,100
these varied reports who or what lies

2185
01:22:12,410 --> 01:22:10,260
behind them and then he goes on to give

2186
01:22:14,330 --> 01:22:12,420
a story of a mystery Airship that was

2187
01:22:19,189 --> 01:22:14,340
spotted over get this Point Pleasant

2188
01:22:23,110 --> 01:22:19,199
West Virginia of course in October 1931

2189
01:22:26,270 --> 01:22:23,120
from years before any Mothman business

2190
01:22:27,950 --> 01:22:26,280
yeah or Flatwoods Monster or Kenneth

2191
01:22:31,250 --> 01:22:27,960
Arnold for that matter

2192
01:22:33,709 --> 01:22:31,260
Vincent Gaddis is laying out you know

2193
01:22:34,910 --> 01:22:33,719
mysterious aerial visitors over the

2194
01:22:37,490 --> 01:22:34,920
Americas

2195
01:22:39,649 --> 01:22:37,500
later that same actually I think that

2196
01:22:41,689 --> 01:22:39,659
the issue in question went to print in

2197
01:22:42,770 --> 01:22:41,699
June that year I think so later that

2198
01:22:44,990 --> 01:22:42,780
month

2199
01:22:46,669 --> 01:22:45,000
this pilot from Boise Idaho is flying

2200
01:22:48,290 --> 01:22:46,679
out over Mount Rainier and sees these

2201
01:22:50,810 --> 01:22:48,300
objects that are moving very strangely

2202
01:22:53,390 --> 01:22:50,820
he Likens their movement to

2203
01:22:56,149 --> 01:22:53,400
um saucers skipping across the water in

2204
01:22:59,270 --> 01:22:56,159
the rest is Victory but so to say that

2205
01:23:01,970 --> 01:22:59,280
the flying saucers arrived in 1947 with

2206
01:23:04,070 --> 01:23:01,980
with Kendall Kenneth Arnold no you know

2207
01:23:06,050 --> 01:23:04,080
there had been a long history of

2208
01:23:07,550 --> 01:23:06,060
researchers looking at weird things in

2209
01:23:09,410 --> 01:23:07,560
the sky whether or not they were saucers

2210
01:23:12,530 --> 01:23:09,420
or UFOs as we know them

2211
01:23:15,110 --> 01:23:12,540
yet again even Kenneth Arnold he said

2212
01:23:16,790 --> 01:23:15,120
that what the Press began to refer to as

2213
01:23:18,709 --> 01:23:16,800
his sighting of flying discs he said

2214
01:23:20,390 --> 01:23:18,719
that they were more like Chevron shaped

2215
01:23:22,669 --> 01:23:20,400
or they almost had like a Batwing kind

2216
01:23:24,770 --> 01:23:22,679
of appearance he didn't necessarily

2217
01:23:26,630 --> 01:23:24,780
describe flying discs or saucers at all

2218
01:23:28,850 --> 01:23:26,640
so we have to ask ourselves in that

2219
01:23:31,250 --> 01:23:28,860
regard coming back to Young is it really

2220
01:23:33,770 --> 01:23:31,260
fair to say that although UFOs may exist

2221
01:23:36,590 --> 01:23:33,780
this idea of flying saucers is a bit of

2222
01:23:40,130 --> 01:23:36,600
a modern mythology something that we

2223
01:23:42,350 --> 01:23:40,140
project onto the UFO phenomenon

2224
01:23:44,689 --> 01:23:42,360
now I've also interviewed people as you

2225
01:23:47,750 --> 01:23:44,699
have who have seen actual discs too so

2226
01:23:49,669 --> 01:23:47,760
it's hard it's such a chicken and egg

2227
01:23:53,689 --> 01:23:49,679
thing and that's the most frustrating

2228
01:23:56,870 --> 01:23:53,699
thing about the modern UFO era uh is a

2229
01:23:58,729 --> 01:23:56,880
misquote in a newspaper is what ushered

2230
01:24:00,709 --> 01:23:58,739
in the term Flying Saucer and then

2231
01:24:02,390 --> 01:24:00,719
everyone started seeing saucer-shaped

2232
01:24:04,790 --> 01:24:02,400
craft after that when that's not even

2233
01:24:07,910 --> 01:24:04,800
what he originally reported to have seen

2234
01:24:10,189 --> 01:24:07,920
so I mean that's that's hard that's hard

2235
01:24:12,410 --> 01:24:10,199
to debate that's hard to argue

2236
01:24:14,330 --> 01:24:12,420
um but at the same time going back to

2237
01:24:16,790 --> 01:24:14,340
Antiquity times and the fact that people

2238
01:24:20,149 --> 01:24:16,800
were still seeing disc shaped shaped

2239
01:24:23,570 --> 01:24:20,159
objects or um shield-shaped objects it

2240
01:24:26,090 --> 01:24:23,580
does show that this form this whatever

2241
01:24:29,570 --> 01:24:26,100
you want to call it saucer shape or disc

2242
01:24:33,169 --> 01:24:29,580
shaped luminous object or solid object

2243
01:24:35,030 --> 01:24:33,179
have been seen much longer than when the

2244
01:24:36,830 --> 01:24:35,040
first misinterpretation of flying saucer

2245
01:24:38,450 --> 01:24:36,840
came to be so you know what else is

2246
01:24:39,770 --> 01:24:38,460
really interesting that expression I

2247
01:24:40,970 --> 01:24:39,780
didn't know this until fairly recently

2248
01:24:43,669 --> 01:24:40,980
myself

2249
01:24:45,290 --> 01:24:43,679
Flying Saucer those two words paired

2250
01:24:47,390 --> 01:24:45,300
together in reference to disc shaped

2251
01:24:51,770 --> 01:24:47,400
objects flying through the air did exist

2252
01:24:53,930 --> 01:24:51,780
before Kenneth Arnold really for decades

2253
01:24:56,930 --> 01:24:53,940
and it was actually um I learned this

2254
01:24:58,550 --> 01:24:56,940
from Chris allbeck who I've he and I

2255
01:24:59,990 --> 01:24:58,560
have actually emailed over the years but

2256
01:25:01,610 --> 01:25:00,000
I've never really had a good chat with

2257
01:25:03,169 --> 01:25:01,620
him and I hope to In fact when I was in

2258
01:25:06,050 --> 01:25:03,179
uh Portugal

2259
01:25:07,790 --> 01:25:06,060
last December uh he resides in Spain I

2260
01:25:09,590 --> 01:25:07,800
looked at the possibility of trying to

2261
01:25:11,510 --> 01:25:09,600
get in touch with him and head over

2262
01:25:13,729 --> 01:25:11,520
there jump on a train if if time allowed

2263
01:25:15,649 --> 01:25:13,739
it didn't I had so much going on while I

2264
01:25:17,209 --> 01:25:15,659
was traveling but um I would really like

2265
01:25:20,870 --> 01:25:17,219
to get to know Chris better

2266
01:25:23,390 --> 01:25:20,880
um but Chris had pointed out that indeed

2267
01:25:25,669 --> 01:25:23,400
if we do archival new newspaper you know

2268
01:25:28,790 --> 01:25:25,679
searches we will find the appearance of

2269
01:25:30,410 --> 01:25:28,800
the expression Flying Saucer Ryan but it

2270
01:25:32,209 --> 01:25:30,420
wasn't with reference to any kind of

2271
01:25:34,010 --> 01:25:32,219
anomalous you know phenomena it was in

2272
01:25:36,890 --> 01:25:34,020
reference to what are also known as clay

2273
01:25:38,030 --> 01:25:36,900
pigeons which you know um room Shooters

2274
01:25:39,590 --> 01:25:38,040
you know if you're taking a shotgun you

2275
01:25:41,570 --> 01:25:39,600
shoot you know like a frisbee like kind

2276
01:25:42,649 --> 01:25:41,580
of a made of clay that you throw and you

2277
01:25:44,149 --> 01:25:42,659
shoot

2278
01:25:45,530 --> 01:25:44,159
um they were from time to time referred

2279
01:25:47,930 --> 01:25:45,540
to as flying saucers in an early

2280
01:25:49,490 --> 01:25:47,940
newspaper accounts which is interesting

2281
01:25:53,030 --> 01:25:49,500
because it very well may be the case

2282
01:25:54,709 --> 01:25:53,040
then that the first newspaperman

2283
01:25:56,030 --> 01:25:54,719
he might have gone to the gun ranges on

2284
01:25:57,410 --> 01:25:56,040
the weekends or something and had been

2285
01:25:59,570 --> 01:25:57,420
familiar with that term but it's very

2286
01:26:01,910 --> 01:25:59,580
likely that he had borrowed not created

2287
01:26:04,850 --> 01:26:01,920
the expression we know today as flying

2288
01:26:07,610 --> 01:26:04,860
saucer oh that's interesting no

2289
01:26:08,649 --> 01:26:07,620
I love that demystifying the turn flies

2290
01:26:11,689 --> 01:26:08,659
saw sir

2291
01:26:13,010 --> 01:26:11,699
tracing it back it's true Origins which

2292
01:26:16,870 --> 01:26:13,020
are even deeper than we ever thought

2293
01:26:19,490 --> 01:26:16,880
yeah yeah wow man well this has been

2294
01:26:23,209 --> 01:26:19,500
quite a journey I'm not gonna lie we

2295
01:26:26,209 --> 01:26:23,219
went all the way to you know BC in this

2296
01:26:29,570 --> 01:26:26,219
conversation up until the modern UFO era

2297
01:26:31,669 --> 01:26:29,580
and uh what's happening today with UFO

2298
01:26:33,010 --> 01:26:31,679
studies in you know since the story

2299
01:26:36,410 --> 01:26:33,020
broke in

2300
01:26:37,370 --> 01:26:36,420
2017. so kind of I guess book ending

2301
01:26:41,149 --> 01:26:37,380
this

2302
01:26:45,709 --> 01:26:41,159
um where do you think we stand today as

2303
01:26:48,050 --> 01:26:45,719
um I guess let's take the UFO Community

2304
01:26:51,110 --> 01:26:48,060
um zoom in a little bit Where Do We

2305
01:26:53,990 --> 01:26:51,120
Stand today when it comes to UFOs I mean

2306
01:26:56,450 --> 01:26:54,000
that's an extremely broad question but

2307
01:26:59,390 --> 01:26:56,460
um we have these Navy encounters we have

2308
01:27:01,850 --> 01:26:59,400
um you know new reporting systems within

2309
01:27:04,490 --> 01:27:01,860
the military we have the Army working to

2310
01:27:06,590 --> 01:27:04,500
analyze UFO stuff with

2311
01:27:08,330 --> 01:27:06,600
um you know Former Intelligence Officers

2312
01:27:10,850 --> 01:27:08,340
this that this that

2313
01:27:13,669 --> 01:27:10,860
Where Do We Stand today in 2020 when it

2314
01:27:15,530 --> 01:27:13,679
comes to the UFO question and uh how

2315
01:27:18,290 --> 01:27:15,540
it's being perceived by the mainstream

2316
01:27:21,410 --> 01:27:18,300
right well now what's really interesting

2317
01:27:24,290 --> 01:27:21,420
is the mainstream seems to have kind of

2318
01:27:26,990 --> 01:27:24,300
warmed up to the idea haven't they yeah

2319
01:27:29,149 --> 01:27:27,000
um I do have to thank

2320
01:27:30,890 --> 01:27:29,159
somebody and acknowledge somebody who

2321
01:27:32,330 --> 01:27:30,900
you got to meet and speak with recently

2322
01:27:33,470 --> 01:27:32,340
and I'd love to talk with her too Leslie

2323
01:27:37,490 --> 01:27:33,480
Kane

2324
01:27:39,350 --> 01:27:37,500
I think Leslie uh is

2325
01:27:41,570 --> 01:27:39,360
you might go so far as to say she's

2326
01:27:43,189 --> 01:27:41,580
largely responsible for the cultural

2327
01:27:46,490 --> 01:27:43,199
shift

2328
01:27:47,870 --> 01:27:46,500
in in relation to UFOs I mean yes she

2329
01:27:50,930 --> 01:27:47,880
co-authored the article with Helene

2330
01:27:52,490 --> 01:27:50,940
Cooper and Ralph Blumenthal in 2017

2331
01:27:54,050 --> 01:27:52,500
but again a lot of people don't pay

2332
01:27:57,169 --> 01:27:54,060
attention to the fact

2333
01:27:59,810 --> 01:27:57,179
that she also uh one no let's see yeah

2334
01:28:01,550 --> 01:27:59,820
uh one month before that she had also

2335
01:28:04,250 --> 01:28:01,560
written a Huffington Post piece I mean

2336
01:28:05,930 --> 01:28:04,260
the day after Lou Elizondo left his

2337
01:28:07,250 --> 01:28:05,940
position at the Pentagon after he

2338
01:28:09,290 --> 01:28:07,260
resigns

2339
01:28:10,910 --> 01:28:09,300
Leslie goes to Seattle Washington I

2340
01:28:13,310 --> 01:28:10,920
believe it was and she met him and spoke

2341
01:28:15,110 --> 01:28:13,320
with him and Chris Mellon Chris Mellon

2342
01:28:17,270 --> 01:28:15,120
whom she already knew

2343
01:28:19,490 --> 01:28:17,280
because she and Chris were on the board

2344
01:28:21,410 --> 01:28:19,500
of the UFO data project together and she

2345
01:28:24,410 --> 01:28:21,420
had interviewed him in 2016 for The

2346
01:28:26,390 --> 01:28:24,420
Huffington Post Leslie before all of

2347
01:28:28,250 --> 01:28:26,400
that of course back in what was it 2010

2348
01:28:30,950 --> 01:28:28,260
you know authors this groundbreaking

2349
01:28:32,090 --> 01:28:30,960
book UFOs uh you know generals pilots

2350
01:28:34,430 --> 01:28:32,100
and government officials go on the

2351
01:28:36,709 --> 01:28:34,440
record and ladies and gents I mean in my

2352
01:28:38,570 --> 01:28:36,719
opinion there's no better book that

2353
01:28:42,050 --> 01:28:38,580
summarizes the modern situation with

2354
01:28:44,030 --> 01:28:42,060
UFOs than that one uh so I I just want

2355
01:28:45,590 --> 01:28:44,040
to say right here uh you know for all to

2356
01:28:47,570 --> 01:28:45,600
hear Leslie is

2357
01:28:49,250 --> 01:28:47,580
um I would love to talk to her at some

2358
01:28:51,169 --> 01:28:49,260
point because and you got to recently I

2359
01:28:52,310 --> 01:28:51,179
saw that and I was so excited that you

2360
01:28:55,669 --> 01:28:52,320
got to spend time with her because man

2361
01:28:58,970 --> 01:28:55,679
she she is a trailblazer and and really

2362
01:29:00,709 --> 01:28:58,980
she spearheaded so much of this uh shift

2363
01:29:02,689 --> 01:29:00,719
in cultural it's not just the media is

2364
01:29:06,590 --> 01:29:02,699
taking it seriously Ryan this is a shift

2365
01:29:08,510 --> 01:29:06,600
in in an entire uh cultural approach to

2366
01:29:10,910 --> 01:29:08,520
an attitude toward this phenomena so

2367
01:29:14,709 --> 01:29:10,920
thank you Leslie Kane first and foremost

2368
01:29:17,810 --> 01:29:14,719
absolutely um she's just remarkable um

2369
01:29:19,370 --> 01:29:17,820
to Leslie yes to Leslie and Dean I hope

2370
01:29:22,129 --> 01:29:19,380
she's doing great you know up there in

2371
01:29:24,169 --> 01:29:22,139
New York all you guys up there I checked

2372
01:29:26,770 --> 01:29:24,179
in on her a couple weeks ago everything

2373
01:29:29,330 --> 01:29:26,780
seems to be good so yeah yeah

2374
01:29:32,209 --> 01:29:29,340
she's not going anywhere when this all

2375
01:29:34,129 --> 01:29:32,219
blows over I come up there again you and

2376
01:29:36,169 --> 01:29:34,139
me and she and old Peter Robbins we're

2377
01:29:37,790 --> 01:29:36,179
going back to the Euphoria Diner and uh

2378
01:29:39,790 --> 01:29:37,800
we're gonna we're gonna have a breakfast

2379
01:29:42,590 --> 01:29:39,800
everybody will remember but absolutely

2380
01:29:44,629 --> 01:29:42,600
but but as far as the current state of

2381
01:29:47,209 --> 01:29:44,639
things it's no big secret anyone who

2382
01:29:49,250 --> 01:29:47,219
listens to my shows uh you'll recall

2383
01:29:50,689 --> 01:29:49,260
that uh to my knowledge I think the

2384
01:29:53,090 --> 01:29:50,699
first interview

2385
01:29:56,030 --> 01:29:53,100
uh that Brett Tingley writer for the war

2386
01:29:58,669 --> 01:29:56,040
zone gave after he began the series of

2387
01:30:00,649 --> 01:29:58,679
articles on the mysterious piece patents

2388
01:30:02,149 --> 01:30:00,659
that the Navy has published that

2389
01:30:04,250 --> 01:30:02,159
appeared on my program

2390
01:30:05,810 --> 01:30:04,260
and the reason why is because Brett is

2391
01:30:08,030 --> 01:30:05,820
very good friend and Brett and I spoke

2392
01:30:09,830 --> 01:30:08,040
today on Skype which is a real shame

2393
01:30:11,510 --> 01:30:09,840
because he lives about an hour that way

2394
01:30:12,530 --> 01:30:11,520
he and I live in right here in the same

2395
01:30:14,149 --> 01:30:12,540
region

2396
01:30:16,070 --> 01:30:14,159
and although the other guy I'm about to

2397
01:30:17,930 --> 01:30:16,080
mention lives across the Atlantic he's

2398
01:30:20,570 --> 01:30:17,940
about as close to me as his bread is

2399
01:30:22,490 --> 01:30:20,580
both of those guys and and you in fact

2400
01:30:23,990 --> 01:30:22,500
other I call them brothers just like I

2401
01:30:26,090 --> 01:30:24,000
would you and that is Tim McMillan

2402
01:30:27,590 --> 01:30:26,100
there's a wonderful threat over on an

2403
01:30:29,750 --> 01:30:27,600
Above Top Secret right now you know

2404
01:30:32,209 --> 01:30:29,760
where does this guy come from just comes

2405
01:30:33,590 --> 01:30:32,219
out of the blue you know uh this retired

2406
01:30:35,209 --> 01:30:33,600
police officer and I'm like look y'all

2407
01:30:38,270 --> 01:30:35,219
want to know where Tim McMillan came

2408
01:30:41,270 --> 01:30:38,280
from go back to the 2019 February

2409
01:30:42,530 --> 01:30:41,280
episodes of my podcast which was still

2410
01:30:44,930 --> 01:30:42,540
called the Grayling report at that time

2411
01:30:47,990 --> 01:30:44,940
Tim was on my show way back in February

2412
01:30:49,850 --> 01:30:48,000
we didn't talk hardly at all about UFOs

2413
01:30:51,830 --> 01:30:49,860
because he wasn't involved in it at that

2414
01:30:53,450 --> 01:30:51,840
time if you want to know where Tim came

2415
01:30:55,189 --> 01:30:53,460
from I mean he's been around for a while

2416
01:30:56,689 --> 01:30:55,199
he'd been emailing me since November of

2417
01:30:58,070 --> 01:30:56,699
2018.

2418
01:31:00,290 --> 01:30:58,080
um and just and it had been in

2419
01:31:02,510 --> 01:31:00,300
archaeological interests Tim is just a

2420
01:31:04,850 --> 01:31:02,520
seeker and a very interested in very

2421
01:31:06,770 --> 01:31:04,860
highly intelligent guy just like you

2422
01:31:08,870 --> 01:31:06,780
know anybody who studies this sort of

2423
01:31:10,970 --> 01:31:08,880
stuff he has questions

2424
01:31:13,610 --> 01:31:10,980
buy a joke he goes after and he goes and

2425
01:31:14,990 --> 01:31:13,620
finds answers he and and uh tingly both

2426
01:31:17,270 --> 01:31:15,000
so

2427
01:31:20,930 --> 01:31:17,280
um being close with those guys like I am

2428
01:31:22,729 --> 01:31:20,940
uh having uh featured uh I I I think

2429
01:31:24,229 --> 01:31:22,739
maybe Tim had gone on an interview with

2430
01:31:25,850 --> 01:31:24,239
John Greenwald because you know we're

2431
01:31:27,890 --> 01:31:25,860
all Pals and he and Greenwald have done

2432
01:31:29,390 --> 01:31:27,900
a lot of live streams together but

2433
01:31:30,709 --> 01:31:29,400
um Tim might have gone on John's show

2434
01:31:31,970 --> 01:31:30,719
before he went online but the point I'm

2435
01:31:33,470 --> 01:31:31,980
making is is that you know these guys

2436
01:31:35,149 --> 01:31:33,480
have been involved in this stuff and

2437
01:31:36,410 --> 01:31:35,159
then they start taking to it and they do

2438
01:31:38,870 --> 01:31:36,420
reporting I think they were in large

2439
01:31:40,550 --> 01:31:38,880
part inspired by a lot of the reporting

2440
01:31:41,990 --> 01:31:40,560
that we've been discussing and the

2441
01:31:43,669 --> 01:31:42,000
cultural shift and they're like let's go

2442
01:31:45,950 --> 01:31:43,679
and let's try and get answers to all

2443
01:31:47,030 --> 01:31:45,960
this I've got some projects in the works

2444
01:31:48,470 --> 01:31:47,040
right now and that's part of the reason

2445
01:31:50,810 --> 01:31:48,480
Tingley and I were talking about it

2446
01:31:51,890 --> 01:31:50,820
today uh Tim and Tingley and I are

2447
01:31:54,830 --> 01:31:51,900
working on

2448
01:31:58,129 --> 01:31:54,840
a UFO centered project which I haven't

2449
01:32:00,470 --> 01:31:58,139
talked about very much at all publicly

2450
01:32:02,810 --> 01:32:00,480
but uh you're getting the exclusive here

2451
01:32:04,910 --> 01:32:02,820
guys little teams you sort of are yeah

2452
01:32:06,410 --> 01:32:04,920
and um I'll be able to debrief you more

2453
01:32:08,510 --> 01:32:06,420
on this in the future but the point I'm

2454
01:32:11,510 --> 01:32:08,520
making is is that you know this has been

2455
01:32:14,990 --> 01:32:11,520
a project that um has been like Tim and

2456
01:32:16,970 --> 01:32:15,000
and uh Brett's fine work a response to

2457
01:32:19,189 --> 01:32:16,980
UFOs

2458
01:32:21,050 --> 01:32:19,199
um and a modern one if you notice

2459
01:32:22,790 --> 01:32:21,060
anything from what Tim and Brett are

2460
01:32:25,669 --> 01:32:22,800
doing they're looking at Navy patents in

2461
01:32:27,830 --> 01:32:25,679
Brett's case Tim is literally getting

2462
01:32:29,810 --> 01:32:27,840
inside information from Bigelow Advanced

2463
01:32:31,430 --> 01:32:29,820
space studies Bigelow Aerospace Advanced

2464
01:32:34,430 --> 01:32:31,440
space studies

2465
01:32:36,410 --> 01:32:34,440
um they are providing more details even

2466
01:32:38,030 --> 01:32:36,420
than guys like Louis zondo were able to

2467
01:32:39,290 --> 01:32:38,040
do to certain restrictions with relation

2468
01:32:41,270 --> 01:32:39,300
to his job

2469
01:32:44,030 --> 01:32:41,280
and thanks to Tim I've been in touch

2470
01:32:45,169 --> 01:32:44,040
briefly though it is with Lou Elizondo

2471
01:32:47,510 --> 01:32:45,179
and it's really clarified a lot of

2472
01:32:49,610 --> 01:32:47,520
questions that UI me everybody in the

2473
01:32:52,430 --> 01:32:49,620
UFO Community to head about atip and

2474
01:32:54,050 --> 01:32:52,440
Elizondo but if I see anything going on

2475
01:32:55,970 --> 01:32:54,060
percolating with the modern UFO

2476
01:32:58,250 --> 01:32:55,980
situation especially among younger

2477
01:32:59,510 --> 01:32:58,260
researchers because I think Brett's just

2478
01:33:01,010 --> 01:32:59,520
a year and a half younger than me and

2479
01:33:02,629 --> 01:33:01,020
Tim might be a little less than a year

2480
01:33:05,390 --> 01:33:02,639
older than me you and I are very close

2481
01:33:06,830 --> 01:33:05,400
to the same age what people right now

2482
01:33:09,590 --> 01:33:06,840
are trying to do is we're trying to

2483
01:33:11,450 --> 01:33:09,600
utilize good historical research methods

2484
01:33:14,870 --> 01:33:11,460
as we've discussed tonight

2485
01:33:17,510 --> 01:33:14,880
you know uh technology is simple and as

2486
01:33:20,090 --> 01:33:17,520
accessible as Google Maps you know this

2487
01:33:21,530 --> 01:33:20,100
helps us prove that zosumin in what was

2488
01:33:25,370 --> 01:33:21,540
it the year uh

2489
01:33:26,870 --> 01:33:25,380
the year 351 yeah yeah he had a very

2490
01:33:29,390 --> 01:33:26,880
good idea of what a stadia was you know

2491
01:33:31,189 --> 01:33:29,400
we can we can now utilize astronomical

2492
01:33:32,390 --> 01:33:31,199
software to determine what objects might

2493
01:33:33,950 --> 01:33:32,400
have appeared in the sky when people

2494
01:33:37,430 --> 01:33:33,960
were looking in a certain direction at a

2495
01:33:39,350 --> 01:33:37,440
certain time we have data at our

2496
01:33:41,750 --> 01:33:39,360
disposal that the late great Stanton

2497
01:33:43,490 --> 01:33:41,760
Freeman didn't have and yet look what he

2498
01:33:45,470 --> 01:33:43,500
did but by jove if he could do what he

2499
01:33:46,970 --> 01:33:45,480
did and he had to drive up to Washington

2500
01:33:48,290 --> 01:33:46,980
and sit there at the National Archives

2501
01:33:49,550 --> 01:33:48,300
and pour through documents you and I

2502
01:33:51,590 --> 01:33:49,560
it's easy these days we fire an email

2503
01:33:54,590 --> 01:33:51,600
off to the FBI or the Air Force we

2504
01:33:56,750 --> 01:33:54,600
submit our Warrior requests never leave

2505
01:33:59,510 --> 01:33:56,760
our kitchen but that means there's no

2506
01:34:02,330 --> 01:33:59,520
excuse because we have all of this at

2507
01:34:05,629 --> 01:34:02,340
our disposal and ease of access and a

2508
01:34:07,610 --> 01:34:05,639
sort of fluidity you know a liquidity if

2509
01:34:08,629 --> 01:34:07,620
I'm to use an economic term for it you

2510
01:34:11,450 --> 01:34:08,639
know

2511
01:34:12,890 --> 01:34:11,460
it's incumbent upon us as the new era of

2512
01:34:15,169 --> 01:34:12,900
UFO researchers

2513
01:34:17,930 --> 01:34:15,179
with all that we have at our disposal

2514
01:34:19,370 --> 01:34:17,940
now to do everything that we can and to

2515
01:34:21,890 --> 01:34:19,380
follow in the footsteps of the Leslie

2516
01:34:23,750 --> 01:34:21,900
Keynes and the Stanton friedmans and the

2517
01:34:25,970 --> 01:34:23,760
Edward rupultz you know and the Charles

2518
01:34:27,709 --> 01:34:25,980
Forts and limited though they were look

2519
01:34:28,970 --> 01:34:27,719
at all what they look at all that they

2520
01:34:32,500 --> 01:34:28,980
were able to accomplish we have no

2521
01:34:37,390 --> 01:34:35,950
[Music]

2522
01:34:48,150 --> 01:34:37,400
[Applause]

2523
01:34:48,160 --> 01:35:01,450
[Music]

2524
01:35:01,460 --> 01:35:17,090
thank you

2525
01:35:20,149 --> 01:35:18,770
there's nothing to hide there's nothing

2526
01:35:20,580 --> 01:35:20,159
to hide at all